In this episode of The Huddle, Daniel and Jose are joined by special guest Mark Herakovic to discuss why continuing education is essential in the flooring industry. With new technologies, techniques, and trends constantly emerging, staying informed and up-to-date can set you apart as an installer or business owner.

The Huddle was created by Paul Stuart of Stuart & Associates and Go Carrera, alongside Jose and Daniel Gonzalez from Preferred Flooring. Aimed at helping you maintain forward progress in your flooring career, they cover topics from personal and business growth, to installation tips & tricks and everything in-between.

Want to be a guest on The Huddle? Email thehuddleforwardprogress@gmail.com today!

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https://www.preferredflooringmi.com
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hey we got mark back we lost you for a second yeah I got a phone call from my warehouse guy

so all good now yeah all right hey what's up everyone

welcome to the Huddle your weekly Playbook where I tell my brother that I can still hear myself in his

microphone stop talking loud I'm talking

normal uh Paul's not here he had some emergency stuff to do with uh one of the

project that he's on so it's just us today Mark not a problem I'm sure I

could rattle on enough oh that's I figured that much that's why I invited

you good that no uh cuz uh we we didn't want to

do the the same topic that we were going to do because PA kind of runs the the blueco collar Cruise right so I

was like Hey the last time we talked uh well I seen you on Facebook you were talking about trying to get

everyone from the the training organizations so that way you can talk to them

about just in general like who is even out there I think right

trying to get a list together yeah I was um writing an article for the CFI

magazine uh I'll probably give it the Beth also at floor Trends and

installation um about the need for trainings but also to list what's out

there so guys have an idea of what's actually out there um to make it easier on them to

find all that information right because I mean how are you going to get trained if you don't

know what's out there right exactly and it's not even just like all your

organizations like uh CFI n wfas uh the ntca uh but the free stuff the

manufacturers off offer also yeah and that's what I was going to kind of get at too it's like when we talk about

education it's not just going to a certification or anything education comes in many forms right and you

already mentioned a couple of the magazines you I mean you talk about just educating yourself from those it's

better than not reading anything and thinking that you know everything yeah

yeah my wife yells at me all the time I'm on my phone all the time but it's

I'm reading those magazines and you know articles and everything related to our

industry um you know she thinks I'm into it too much but it's what makes you

professional you know that is what it is what makes you a professional it's also what separates you when you when you

care about what you do and you care about just you just care period you're gonna investigate you're G to find

something that you like like an article you're gonna read it and then you're gonna come up with your own uh ideas

from that article or from somebody's information yeah does relate yeah because a lot of the people

who do know me and you know when we go to uh trainings or uh the conventions or

anything like that you know you're always going to have questions you know

and with the you know products and materials and everything rapidly

changing you got to have questions and who are you going to ask you know it's

you know and that's where all these trainings do come in handy you know it just elevates you and you know the

industry in itself right and even as like uh we're in sales too right so as a salesperson

anytime there's an issue that comes up I can actually go and just talk to these

reps and be like hey this is kind of what's happening what should I be

doing yeah and and that's the other thing I'm trying to get to also in this

article is you got to get to know your reps you know because you could call the

800 number to a tech department or whatever for a manufacturer you'll be lucky to get a call in a couple of days

and by then it's too late you know knowing your reps they're going to get information

for you a lot quicker yeah a couple days how about a couple weeks got a phone call into I'll

just I don't know if I should throw them under the bus or not but uh a German company who hasn't returned phone call

or email really yeah yeah because I I I and

that's what I did last weekend I put out um you know I messaged uh a bunch of the

organizations and the people I know um it's like hey I'm doing

this questionnaire you know five questions of what they offer and you

know when it's available or can they just call up and you know schedule something and I'm still waiting on those

responses you know it's like you want us to do these trainings

but you're not getting back to people quick enough and you know with the podcast like the Huddle and everything

um just you know doing the research yourself you know it's going to make it

a little easier to have it out there in print where it's a little more accessible than trying to contact

someone you know that's already you know trying to contact the manufacturer sometimes your reps are

real busy or whatever you know you don't get a call back or they forget to call you back at least this will be in one

one or two spots in a couple magazines where um you know you'll have something

to reference back to and have the you know an email link or something like that to make it a little bit

easier you had mentioned about uh researching yourself so um I'm one who

likes to do that right and the benefit of that is now you're just don't have someone talking at you or telling you

you're absorbing it interpreting it yourself you're going to retain it a lot easier U not only that is if you do

research and then still need help from a rep now you're at least on the same page and speaking the same language or or

closer to um and that helps uh come up with a solution a lot faster than uh

than just calling them say hey I got this floor is going bad I got this product is not working well what's the

locking mechanism or what adhesive are using uh whatever they sent yeah you know yeah that that doesn't help them

answer a question you know no and that's the thing I'm I'm self-taught in my

career and I I I do stuff pick things up you know everybody has their failures as

they're starting out and everything and you learn from that but you do your research because yeah you don't want to

have to Shell out the money to replace something or repair something you know

but you got to do that research so that doesn't happen again you know and if if

you don't know the the correct product to use you could be like um okay I'm

going to use this specific adhesive for this product well it might not be the

for the correct application if you don't know their products and get trained on how to use

their products correctly they're not going to be able not even getting trained right he just

educating yourself and knowing that hey uh so story Chris Koo texted me the other

day and he's like hey I'm doing some of this sheet vinyl they sent this adhesive I don't think it's the right

stuff so I'm like yeah you're right it's not the right stuff it should be this

and he's like all right I'm going to go and tell them and then they came back and said no talk to the salespeople they

said it's the right stuff and he's like man I'm just I don't know what to do so he I was like dude just contact the

manufacturer and see what's up and sure enough they said that I mean down to the material that he was installing and

wasn't the right stuff for the application so it's it's just doing the the research like that

like knowing enough education to know that hey something ain't right it starts

with one thing and then it kind of just balloons to everything else and then you're just essentially protecting

yourself and making sure that you're not going to have project failures yeah

uh same kind of same instance last Saturday you know Saturday morning and I

was just sitting drinking my coffee and I got a call from a guy out in Texas cuz he saw I just did the uh lob bakle uh

training and uh he called me up he's like well we're using this product but we're having an

issue I'm like well it sounds like you didn't follow directions correctly or

use the correct you know he used their moisture

barrier but then was using a different leveler over the top of it and he didn't

use the correct primer for it you know so he called me you know and I had an answer for him but yeah I called I I I

called my rep and The Tech Guy um just to verify before I gave that information

out I didn't want to give them the wrong information you know but that's where it

good to know your reps or your field tech or you know even the guys who work in the in the lab in the tech department

or something is because then they can give you that correct information you know and then you know he was able to go

ahead redo everything and not have an issue from that point you know so it's

trainings isn't just about learning the information it's also building those

relationships with those companies you know and you're going to be more

confident as an installer also instead of you know like me I have questions all

the time you know I I do trainings I know a lot of the information but it's

more of is this correct you know it's it knowing

that you don't know everything right and like you said the technology changes so much that it could change from one pale

to the other and you don't know until you start reading into it yeah and and that's the most aggravating thing is you

know the old saying I've done it this way 30 years with no problems you can't

say that because just in the past two years look at the the changes in adhesives and the multiple different

kinds of adhesives that are out there you know whether it's a urethane base

waterborne Ms technology um an acrylic uh you know

there's so many different products out there you got to keep up on it you know and mate is

correct right sometimes their correct answer is I don't know but I'll find out and get back to

you yeah yeah and and a homeowner is going to be a lot more um understanding

and have a lot more confidence in their installer um when you do say something

like that or it's like well I've never run across this let me contact this person or whatever you know

because a lot of homeowners are seeing what's done on on like HG TV watching YouTube videos which are that's a whole

another conversation right there right and then they get mad when you don't just go in there and get their stuff

done in a half hour because that's how long their show is yeah they Bas it off that commercial where the guy just rolls

out a floating floor and the couch levitates and lands back on it right and

then once you once you do start getting that education and then knowing your reps it at least on the commercial side

it it helps out a lot because sometimes they'll just be like give me their information it's a hands-off approach

just like I'll say hey they want they're asking about this I told them that and

they're still not really grasping the idea you can contact them and then they

go through everything for them and sometimes even go to you know to job sites and stuff like that to to handle

it where you don't have to even do anything and I mean that's more time for you to do something else and that's

what's nice about a lot of the manufacturer trainings too um they're

not just like either at their at their Factory or at a distributor or anything

a lot of your reps will go to job sites they won't do the work for you but they

will make sure you are set up and doing it correctly and they will have they're also there to answer those

questions while you're doing it um I've seen a big over the past couple of years

I've definitely seen um a huge availability be in uh a lot of your

technical sales reps and everything for companies being out more on job sites

than they are doing uh the counter days at the distributors or doing just the

trainings at a factory or something like that um which I think is better because

now you're hands on using their product and learning it um as opposed to just

sitting there watching them use the product and just telling you about the product because you got to have the feel

for each product you know it's not just oh I have the I have the knowledge on

how to do this but there's a feel to it at least in my mind there you know

like the when I did that training in Cincinnati uh three weeks ago you know

it was the adhesive side and also the um stains and finishes and you know know

you were Hands-On sanding and everything and all these guys are sitting there putting headphones in you know to do the

sanding I'm like you got to hear that machine you got to feel that machine so

I don't understand how they're doing it you know with with headphones in where

you got to be able to hear that machine to make sure it's running correctly you know is it creating the chatter in the

floor you know is something clogged or you know there's a feel and a sound that

you gota you know get to and it's the same as on the adhesive side when you're spreading

adhesive you know there's a feel to each different adhesive you know so you know and that's

where a lot of these Hands-On trainings and everything come into play I

think I get I get exactly what you're saying about that the hear the feeli right so it's not hear about hearing it

it's more about learning it you're learning what is a regular normal sound if it's operating efficiently versus is

when it starts to uh get clogged or you know the RPMs are going up or low or

maybe you're losing power somewhere I I get I get that aspect um and to go Backtrack on the the Reps getting out

more you're absolutely right like they have almost all the answers for every

question you might have from a technical standpoint and application standpoint

yeah and I will say that like uh the first time I had a rep come out and get

down and dirty with us on a night job uh was was Jared from udine and that dude

that was the I never expected it and not only that our sales rep was there too which was awesome

like I mean I wasn't looking at it like free labor I was looking I asked as many

questions like yeah and that's that's the thing

I've noticed too is like even going to do the trainings or whatever people

don't ask questions it's like they're afraid to yeah or and that's why you know during a lot

of those education sessions at the uh convention or at trainings or whatever I

will ask questions I'll ask a difficult question I'll ask a question I already know the answer to 100 he that's what he

does all the time he's like I already like like you were saying right I already know the answer to this but I'm going to ask it anyways because it was a

question that you had at one point and you know someone else has that question and every like even when I do the

trainings it's like does anyone have any questions and everyone is like no and then sometimes they'll approach you

later on and it's like hey and then they'll ask a question it's like man like just if you would just ask it in

front of everyone no one's going to be like I can't believe you're asking that question it's like someone else has that

question too well yeah because like at that last one I did you know I I was asking my questions

I already knew all the answers to it and we took a break and uh one guy came

up to me he's like dude I wouldn't have even thought of asking those questions I was like to me they seemed

like pretty basic yeah simple questions but you know you got other guys who have

been doing it 15 20 years according to them that they're like I wouldn't have

even thought of asking that and that's why I ask him you know and it's especially at con ition or whatever you

know everybody's like you know always stared at me like you got any questions mark and I'm not trying to start

arguments or anything it's just more of a clarification you know and that's what's

good with you know especially attending conventions it's not just the networking

but now you can get clarification of instructions from the manufacturers

themselves you know because there is a disconnect between what we're told

by a manufacturer rep and what's actually listed in their instructions and I was actually just having a a

discussion yesterday about a post I made on one of the forums about H

joints and I'm like it's it's a weak spot it creates a weak spot in a floor

yes and this guy kept arguing with me he's like well it's listed in their

instructions and like they show the picture of you know staggers and stuff and they have H joints in there and

stair steps and stuff like that so just to clarify my stance on it I messaged a

manufacturer uh head of the technical department for one of the manufacturer and I I I took a screenshot

of his answer and I posted it and the guy was still arguing with me I was like this is straight from the manufacturer

yeah it's so so and I think that that's the confusion too right like um because this has come up in one of the certification classes that we did and it

was um it is an approved install but it's not a preferred install like and there's

reasons why like like you just said the the the integrity and the strength of the Locking mechanisms is compromised

because now you're creating more linear weak points instead of it being yeah and

from the answer that I've got that I got from uh this particular rep was um it

creates a lot more stress on those joints when you is because you figure

you got this movement now it gives it a direct line straight across and it does

it does create a lot more stress in that specific area so it is going to end up

creating gaps in the floor and it's going to start to fail um just the same with uh stair steps it creates a fault

line where it's putting stress on that pattern um as opposed to a random

stagger whether it's a floating Flor a a uh nailed down hardwood something like

that not only is it more aesthetically pleasing having a random p uh stagger

but it actually Keys it and locks it in better and Tighter now you're not just relying on a locking system now you have

the full board itself acting as a locking system as opposed to just that that

small Locking System all right and um so so if some people don't understand that

aspect you got to look at it like like I try to find something to compare it to right like a control joint there's a

reason why they they go and they strategically cut at the columns instead of letting it crack everywhere right

it's strategic and um I know that the H joints lining them up like that

essentially is the same concept as a control joint in my eyes I mean that's the way to explain it to someone it's

like there that's an intentional weak spot you don't want to do that you can avoid that doing the

install that's where they brought up the uh the tile look like floating lvp the

tile look and my thought on that is and I haven't discussed it with any reps or

anything like that but at least on the tile those are a wider board you know you're looking at 12 18 16 inches wide

by two foot uh in some instances anymore they're three foot um but that wider plank or

that wider board it's going to dissipate some of that energy a little bit more but I think what that does then too is

it could create some of that cing that you know everybody says it's moisture but I think it's pressure you know where

a lot of that movement happening in a wider board dissipates more towards the center

causing your edges to kind of curl up a little bit again that's you know that's just my

thought education kind of uh backfires a little bit right because we know enough

to start making our own assumptions but then we don't know the actual cause of

it and then you get just kind of got to rely on what the manufacturer tells you and this is where a lot of the

installers will have push back right well they're saying that it's failing because of this when think it's this

but dependent inspectors out there too right and that's where um educating

yourself and going to these events helps out because you can actually talk to

these inspectors you talk to these manufacturers you talk to these Tech guys and then you get stories where I

mean I talked to them where they said that they were they had

failures because in the middle of you know they they sell

and it was a click together plank they were selling a bunch of it and then they switched

manufacturers or they switched not the manufacturers but the locking mechanism so they went from one to the other

without even telling anyone without telling any of the tech reps or anything

and I was like man they didn't even update the the installation instructions or nothing he said Daniel nothing I

didn't know anything no one knew anything and it wasn't until they started having issues is when they found

out yeah yeah and you you run into that quite often but that's where you know

the education part as an installer come into

play you know because a lot of these everybody always complains about drop lock uh lvps or laminet or whatever

they're actually really good I'll complain about them too well thing is they're really good and strong you know

but it's only as good it doesn't matter if it's the i4f the uh valinge or the UN

The unilin unic Click system you know if your floor is not within proper

tolerance they're all going to fail you know and that is it right there

where education is going to come in because you know we everybody knows 316

in 10t radius or whatever 8 in and 6 foot 8 foot whatever it whatever it is

you know but doing the trainings you're actually Hands-On doing it then you know

you're you're tested on it you're doing it yourself not just being told this is

what it needs to be now you have an idea how it needs to be done and what proper

steps to take to do that and what's acceptable and what's not acceptable and what's going going to be your best

course of action for the application um you know so you know and

and that's that's the one thing I get tired of is you know everyone I'm tired

of the complaining from everyone you know it's like why failed this inspection because they said it's in

solar area they're full of crap well dude deal with it you screwed

up because you don't know what you didn't do it correctly that's where the educ comes in and the

education is there and I've heard it from all the certification boards the training sessions uh manufacturers

themselves you know it that they're getting a lot more involved over the

past few years so they don't want you to fail

they don't want to have the installer show out the money for these Replacements they want to see it done

correctly and that's where the training and the education comes into play right

and that like I said you know in the beginning it's not just the training trainings that you have to go to right

there's multiple Avenues where you can get education you can educate yourself just think in terms of like the CRI 104

105 right it's right online for anyone to read they have documents out there

that are free and yet people still don't know that they're there's standards out

there that you have to follow if you're just had that conversation if you're a a commercial

installer and you don't know what you know f710 is ASM f710 then you're

already behind and I mean granted these documents you do have to pay for right

but you pay a small fee and you get access to basically any any document in

that in that one vertical Market that you need right so if you do want to know

what ASM f710 is then you have 18 you what is it 1869 2170 on all these

moistures and like there's so much information out there that all you have

to do is look for it yeah because I think the ASM I think

it's uh $60 to get access I think it's 75 now that's

and I think it's like 125 to have access to all of them for the

year uh something like that something like that I I like I said I don't know

but I mean if if you join then you have access to all of them right and I mean

and that way you have that information to go back on you know whether it's you

know especially if you're a subcontractor um and you're subing out to a store or something now you have

that information you're not just fighting with the salesman or the owner of the store it's like hey this isn't

correct and here's my backing of it you know and then once you start getting into you know more levels there's

actually softwares out there that keep track of everything for you because uh we've been using floor Cloud for a while

and we actually you can go through and there's what products are you using on this project and then you don't even

have to know like you just input the product and they keep track of it for you it's like once you're you have it in

there you start getting alerts all the time and it's like temperature humidity

Doo like these things are not inspect for this product and you can go on there and see what that product calls for yeah

and Flor Cloud's nice because it automatically updates itself uh when there's changes or

updates to products um it's a great great system I

think it's what it's it's not that bad if like for me if I was working by

myself it would be a little pricey for me but if you're a larger especially if you do a lot of commercial work um or if

you do a lot of uh new construction um and you have GRS out there wood flooring

even wood even even in the residential setting dude yes yeah for wood floors

because you you especially wood floors if you if you uh deliver your material

ahead of time like your supposed to for acclamation but say it's delivered and it's in the house and they paint it they

get all the painting done man that change moisture content real quickly

yeah a lot of people don't think about that I mean just think of in terms of getting it in there to acclimate right then you show up and start doing a bunch

of self-loving that H that that water's got to go somewhere yep yeah and you

know uh uh back to the ASM standards how many people know that there was a newm

standard uh put out there I think it was like three months ago four months ago uh

allowing testing no for uh approval of roll on moisture barriers under

lvps they actually made ANM standard about that and people just don't know

but I am going to play a Flor Cloud video right now so it is a great product and like I said we have it on a few

projectss right now and it's definitely worth its weight in gold man oh

definitely time monitoring of your jobsite conditions via desktop or mobile

device no more manual checking for temperature humidity or even dueo no

need for base stations Wi-Fi or external power sources simply scan the QR code on

the front of your sensors and you're up and running with the most accurate and Innovative sight monitoring system in

the flooring industry dispatch your Crews with confidence and reduce your climate related installation

issues floor Cloud now you know yeah so we're on a project right

now where um the it's right in the manufacturer's documents I said you have

to keep track of the ambient conditions throughout the entire project or else

basically I mean if you don't your warranty is not there right

yeah you know some people have the uh the ability like we have in our warehouse right now the the censor out

there that will shoot it back to us in here right um but that was the the the

ba the basis of floor cloud is that you don't have to visit the site you can log on and get all that information right

but anything is better than nothing but yeah the money that saves a company too

of sending a crew out there and they can't do anything because the conditions

you know that's a lot of wasted money and now you have guys complaining because they're not making any money because they're not working that day you

know so it's it it was it's a very ingenious idea right so Mark based off of uh cell

phone services or something or cellone yeah it's got its own you know SIM card and stuff in there and it shoots

everything out all by itself but you know we're we're talking about education and you said that you're selftaught so

what was your kind of uh turning point where you were like I'm going to start getting the most education that I

can uh so it's actually kind of funny because it was uh a little over two

years ago when I actually went and got certified myself um because for the longest time I

was against certifications because I I I'd run into a lot of guys that were certified and I'm like well that doesn't

seem right what you're doing you know but it it got to a point where

you know I was rounding 30 years at that time of installing

and I I I heard it pretty much throughout my career is like am I as

good as everybody says I am and do what I know is it accurate and

that's why I went and did it was more to test myself and challenge myself and

then when I actually went to that certification I learned quite a bit you

know and it it was kind of humbling when we did the the hand skills and everything like that it was pretty

humbling um but the amount of information that I didn't know um really up my game over the last

few years and but now I take that information and now I go back and talk

with all our other installers and Subs uh when I show up at the warehouse because they come to me and they ask me

hey what would you do with this well well here's why you need to do it this way you know you know it it's passing

that education on also you know and and that's why I ended up doing it you know

like you said passing it on and that's one of the things too about certification and training and getting

out there is it's one thing to be credible because you are uh you know

coined a good installer decent at a certain discipline in your area but it's another thing when it's recognized by a

commit or or national program where you're uh you have your certificate of

completion or certification that is more validated by the industry instead of the people that

you surround yourself with and uh that's a yeah it sounds weird but but it gives

you that sense of completion as well right like like it it totally did and it it really

changed my outlook on what I do and what I've spent you know my entire I I've

been doing this more than half my life now and I was getting burned out on the

install side for many many years and that kind of rejuvenated me and now it's

like okay everybody said I was good now let's be better you know it kind of gave

me that let's get more involved let's get this education out there and

and it's not I I always said it was an arrogance thing at at one point and it's

not necessarily an arrogance thing but like you said it's more of a sense of uh

accomplishment um than anything but it did kind of rejuvenate my

uh I guess it's a passion still well you talk about arrogance right and that's

what Dwayne told me he said I thought you were really arrogant when I first met you and and then I got to know you

and I realized that it wasn't that right and it's it was never meant to I was never meant to come off as arrogant

because I'm not the one that was saying that I was really good or the best at anything like you said it was everyone

else that was kind of pushing that validation on to me and then once you

realize you're like man maybe I am kind of good and then it's like uh where else can we go with this right and it's

that's why that's why you know in the in the classes for the NCT and the last one

when we met down there when you came over there to uh what's he was that in

Columbus right columus yeah uh they asked me you know why why are you doing

this why are you teaching this class and it's like man I got I got to get this stuff out of my head

because Flash cob and heat weld is that dying art and people need to know how to

do it because you're talking life and death situations sometimes if there's a bunch of stuff that's getting underneath

something something in a surgery room and all it takes is you know that being

pushed into the air and now it's in someone's body yeah the bacteria yeah

and and actually what I I when I stopped and and talked to you and sunny

there I I I love that class one because yes as you said it it is a dying skill

there's not much around it but what I liked about that class is you had two

guys from the manufacturer you had another guy who's been doing flashco for

many many years but wanted to you know uh up his skills because he had a big

job coming up plus he had some younger kids there um you know that was the

perfect scenario to push some kind of Education and Training

and right there is the perfect example of it you know cuz you have guys who

work for the manufacturer but needs to know how to actually install it a guy who's just uh you know redoing his skill

set after doing it for so many times and then the new the the younger kids you

know who there's money to be made in Flash Co now because nobody does it you

know so that was I I really enjoy people do it they just they they don't do it correctly ly

and that's where that's where things need to change right it's educating yourself and knowing you're not just

going in into the the building and throwing a floor down it's hey like this

is a really sensitive area and if this isn't right I could potentially cause

issues in someone's life and it's looking at it like that and that's what I kind of drive to people when I'm

talking to them and it's like it's not just going in and slapping something in it's talking to infection control and

knowing that you know so many deaths happen because of just sweeping and the

the air you know getting dust in the air and then then traveling through the HVAC it's knowing things like that so when

we're talking education we're not just talking about how to install the flooring we're also talking about what

are you affecting when you're going into these places I mean just look at you know in residential too you go in there

and you start sanding something and it's like that dust is going to settle somewhere

and knowing that you know everything that you do

affects someone else exactly and it that's what's funny

about you know like even on you know any of the multiple forums that are out

there you know listen to some of these guys talk and I I don't comment much or

anything but it's like man this is why we need training you know they don't

realize you know lvps and laminates were pushed for many many years as a DIY

homeowner friendly to install and everything but why are the so-called professionals having such an issue with

it that's where the training comes in handy you know it's like are you just a

y homeowner who's making money on this how about you do it correctly you're not going to have the issues that

everybody's having lately do it correctly How You Gonna know how to do it correctly unless you

do some of the trainings we got Jesus and Jor on here I do want to shout out

to Jor because this guy just got married over the weekend congratulations

bro so um you just mentioned about the DIY and I just had a conversation with a

with a client um about about a week ago week and a half ago and uh she had me on

I was in speaker phone with her and her husband and she was talking about they did she said the bathroom was just

installed not too long ago and it's failing and blah blah blah and I didn't at that point I didn't know

the husband was the one who did it so I was threw him under the bus a little bit right but not like in a bad way it's

just that we're diyers home on owners are still subject to the same standards

as their professional yes and what separates a DIY from a professional is

the fact that they are willing to educate themselves they are willing to ask the questions they are willing to

practice with material before they install it they're willing to go through all of that additional work to educate

themselves to be better for you at the end of the day and um and if you're one of the installers that just kind of you

just kind of do it as you go right you're doing yourselves any any favors you're keeping your close mind and and

and you could be better you could be more efficient they're not separating themselves from the DIY crowd correct

you know and and that's to me that's not a professional you know and and that's

where I get hypocritical sometimes is if you don't keep educating yourself

and trying to do better and keeping up with the changes in the industry to me that's not professional but yet

the hypocritical part is I will never call myself a professional I I think it changes a

little bit too much yeah I think I think the information I think that some of these homeowners actually educate

themselves better than some of these installers to be honest with you because the information is out there and they do

so much research before they get anyone in there that they already kind of know what is going on before you even

step foot in there right yes but the downfall of that also is homeowners

think they know it all then um you know because again they are watching the

YouTube videos and the and stuff like that where

there's a lot of companies out there making videos and everything and I just shake my head because they're doing

pressure sensitive adhesive over a sheet vinyl with no kind of prep or you know

they're uh spreading adhesive over all the paint and everything that's all over

the floor and drywall I'm like and there there's some of the biggest influencers out there

like on social media that are doing stuff like that and they're making a bunch of money by putting these videos

out and they're making even more money because they're getting these jobs done all super fast and people think that

they're doing a great job and it it's normalized right but that's where when

things like this happen you have to be educated enough to know that you can go

in there and say hey this is what's going on I can provide you with these documents yeah and that's where it's not

just the education of you know proper subor prep how to install a product correctly anything like that it's also

being able to talk with a homeowner uh and that's where I think you know some

other uh training needs done for a lot of contractors is being able to go in

you know you know be able to talk to a homeowner keep their mind at ease but

like I go into a job on the first day I'll look around you know couple

questions I have here or there but then it's like all right here's what I'm going to do today you know today's going

to be demo and prep here's how I'm going to prep here's what I'm going to do because we need flat we don't need level

we need flat because everybody's always like well the floor is not level doesn't need to be level I need flat you know

and then having that discussion with them it does put a lot of homeowners more at ease when you could take some of

this education that you're learning and all this information that's correct and pass that on to a

homeowner um that does put their their their mind at ease and more confident

and comfortable of having you in their house um you know because like I go into jobs where people are spending 40 50

$60,000 on a brand new floor and install you know it it does make it a

little easier for them to you know to spend that kind of money knowing that's

going to be installed correctly that's that value the value that's added to it

and the prevention and you just said something that separates I I feel it

separates us a little bit from some of the other install around now I'm saying installers because some of the other companies have all the literature

already in place right it's you are already presenting solutions for issues

or problems that haven't even arose yet right you're you're preventing because you understand what you might hit and

and you're explaining everything up front um and you're right some people it's hard to do that right because they

just look at the overall dollar amount but if yeah if they understand that

their investment is in your is is also your best interest then it's a different story they they they do accept the um

the understanding I don't want to say higher charge right because sometimes you don't even need it right it's just if I hit the scenario this is what could

happen um don't mean to scare people away but at the same time I want to be transparent right because that you're

educating them based on the education that you have right and it's like it I'm not giving you this education so you

pick me I'm giving you this education so that you know and your project doesn't fail whether you go with me or not yeah

exactly saying that that he talked to you about something last week when uh

yeah I I actually mentioned it earlier he was the one who contacted me last Saturday uh about a

product and uh yeah I I called my I called I called the rep you know and he

answered Saturday morning he was sitting at breakfast with his uh wife I was like

sorry to bother you but they answer you know know if you and that's the relationship you got to build with your

reps um you know it's I called him with a question at nine o'clock on a Saturday

morning he answered and gave me the information I needed so I could pass that on you know if I didn't know that

rep and I just happen to have his number because I met him at a a a counter day

or something they might not necessarily answer they're like I don't remember this guy or something you know sometimes

they still answer and then sometimes you have a rep that you know moves to a different position or a different

territory and then you just contact them anyways because you you've got that relationship you know they're yeah

they're they're a rep but they're a friend still right oh yeah yeah and it

it that's the importance of knowing your reps and the technical guys and

everything um is you do have that Saturday Sunday

job or something that you know you might need an answer right then and there because it is a weekend you know that

things may not be open or it's like oh did I just really screw the pooch on

this one and you know what's this going to cost me those guys can give you that

answer on how to correct that you know without having the delay in a job or

something that's going to end up costing you a lot of money and

if you're contacting your rep that means you probably already tried to do some research and you're just trying to get clarification so you are educating

yourself and that's really all we try and say and and put out there is you got to start somewhere you don't

know everything and the importance of education is knowing that you are doing

everything so that way if an inspector is called in on that project all they can do is say no everything looks good

must be our stuff yeah y if you're not learning you're lying to yourself that's

for sure oh definitely you know and that's why I hate that I've been doing

that this way for 30 years that D that drives me up a wall and not only that right it's

uh I haven't done it the same way for 30 years well and just with tooling itself

right and I mean do tools from 30 years ago still work amazing absolutely but

there's new tools out to make everything easier

so and the same thing with adhesives and things like that I mean um I was on a

project the other day and there's a there's a carpenter he was like I used to do I did flooring for like eight

years back in the day and he he used to do a bunch of sheet Vining he's like do they still do the two-part epoxy stuff

underneath all the seams and it's like man that hasn't been a thing for a while now he was like yeah you can see how

long ago it was what's that adhesive that adhesive it was Armstrong thing

right no whatever whatever be Weezy used to say all the time oh monobond

monobond I haven't heard that in a long time just maab Bond and we're

good yeah because actually when I was at convention this year during the trade show just talking with all the

manufacturers and the and the uh the tool guys and everything they are starting to listen

to installers and they're changing stuff to make it

easier and if you don't know what those changes are that they're

making like I said man you got to educate yourself on those changes you

know and they are starting to listen and they're making good Headway like some of

the new tools that Roberts come out with uh Crane's come out with some good ones

uh our good friend Ray naap man some of his stuff that's

ingenious but if I if you don't educate yourself on those new tools you're going

to do more harm to yourself than and than what they're used for you know

it's it's I just don't understand why guys aren't doing it well well it's one

of those things too where right like it it C cost us as installers more money to

do things the right way and to keep up with all the trends and the changes and that's what the manufacturers are

starting to do with the tooling is they want us to make more money so they got to put more thought into the process

what better way to get answers and better tooling than to ask the installers why aren't you using my tools

yeah they go ahead they try and make things more user friendly right and make it so

that you're you're more efficient but a lot of people just think that they're trying to make it so that way everything

is geared more towards the diyers which it kind of is because when you don't

educate yourself that basically all you are is a diyer yeah yeah and it's like I talking with

some of those reps at at the convention yeah they are tired of

denying claims because it's not installed correctly you know it's

because that ends up costing them money too you know they are dumping a ton of

money into trainings and certifications and stuff like that

and I heard one rep down at the summit back in March or February whenever uh

Sunny had that it was like we don't have

to but they're dumping more and more money and

more and more manufacturers are starting to do it because they see a need for it and you know it it's available a lot

of guys are too busy working they come home at night they're still doing estimates they're doing outdoing

measures um they're working late hours so last thing they want to do is sit on a computer so that's why I'm writing

this articles to make it easy so now you have all that information right there in one spot you know and all you have to do

then is just click a a web page link or something and it's and these you know

magazines are free subscriptions guys like CFI uh what is there there's flooring

specialist floor Trends and installation uh inst

uh ntca does some stuff uh they have their

uh was a tile letter um plus you have all the P the different podcasts you know got your you got Kyle's you got the

UHA has a few of them yeah yeah there's a floor Talk there's uh ntca I can't

remember what theirs is called um but yeah there's there's so many resources

out there it's not even necessarily just reading something you know it it's like

a lot of these guys sit there and you know make their comments and go on the flooring forums and stuff on Facebook

book take some of that time and go to one of these magazines they're online

you know they're all online go and read those articles and actually learn something instead of you know getting a

lot he's gonna make his own magazine and all is gonna it's going to be called floor hack

magazine yeah all they at work that one will

probably get r that that 100

that well there's that uh uh there's one of those forums uh

floor hacks or something like that I actually got put on it once because I was doing a bathroom at my own house

that I was renting and uh the toilet they 3/4 sub floored around the

toilet and it was old cast iron so there was an old cast iron pipe

and I'm like I don't no Plumbing I'm not raising that pipe up so I just floored

around the toilet put a transition around it it looked good but you're

looking at it all wrong that's all right you're looking at it wrong they didn't three4 subfloor around it they recessed

the toilet that's what they did pretty much because I think they did take the toilet set it on the plywood because

there was no scene they traced it they traced it I was like that's pretty

impressive you know sometimes and and that's the education thing too right like some of the education that

you get comes with experience yeah and we're not plumbers but I do know that

there are other ways and to go about adding height to the flange right they

there are a lot of other ways to do that and if yeah yeah I just know you call

somebody just call for that yeah the plumber yeah it was it was a rental so I

didn't really care they got a new floor for free so but you just you got to recess it like that but you got to bring

it back a little bit and then make sure you put a black light around the Ring of the recess that way when bacteria builds

up you see it and you know when to clean the bathroom I was just figuring so I

could see when I go to at night when I wake up in the middle of the night well

we're about at at the end of this man I I appreciate you being on today um and talking and you know I mean a lot of us

started off with our education kind of the same way you did and just there's a

point where you got to know that you don't know everything and that the information is out there and a lot of it

is at no cost right and that just pushes you into actually going out and

venturing and actually paying for some of this other education but you got to start somewhere and I mean education is

there man CRI like I said the CRI 104 4 105 is free and a lot of these carpet

guys don't even know it that it exists yeah yeah there's uh ardx theirs

is free they put you up they feed you everything uh Lobo vacle there's is free

they put you up I think a lot of the manufacturers if you just want to do their stuff a lot of it is actually free

a matter of is just getting there well a lot well that's with like your adhesives

and your finishes stains and stuff uh stuff like Mohawk and

taret if you have a bunch of issues you know if you're struggling with their

certain products um you would actually have to go through the distributor um

where you buy their product from but they'll send a rep out and do like I

talked to Phil gliden uh during our uh meeting the other day um it's like an

eight hour class and they go over all of their products on how to correctly install it and everything like

that I mean even the Distributors get on their mailing list so that way when they are having something you can go do it

and stop saying I can't do it that day because I'm I'll be working it's you

know what yeah I have to be there that day like I said it's you you have to start looking at it like I can't afford

to do this and start saying I can't afford not to do this yeah because it's it's cheaper even

if you got to pay for a training that's still cheaper than having to replace a job

well not only that it's the the value in it it's still cheaper than losing a client that could be with

you for years than losing every customer and that's the same thing with manufacturers right like offering the

training and education they don't want to keep getting respect and losing uh potential

uh contract with with A&E they'd rather stay relevant one bad installer giv a

product a bad name they remove it from their library and they move on to the next thing so yeah help help yourself

out um but yeah we should probably close this out um and I guess uh my closing statement for today would be is

um piggybacking off why Daniel said but instead of looking at it like um do it for your it's that you can't not you you

you can't afford not to do it it's just you know what do it for your clients do it for the end users do it for the

people if you're invested and you're all in then be invested be all in do it for

for the life of your business your company your family you know it's going to give you a lot more in return than

what you're ever going to pay out for the education Mark you got anything to close

this out no just appreciate you guys asking me to come on man it was a good time yeah don't get off when uh when we

end the live stream just talk for a second we always forget to say that beforehand uh if you guys found this you

know podcast helpful definitely share it around give us a like give us a dislike we don't care what you do as long as

you're interacting with us because if we're doing something that you don't like we need to know so that way we can be better just like uh the education

right it's you don't know what you don't know so let us know and uh we will see

you guys next week