This week on The Huddle the guys give the ins and outs of bidding, best practices, and mistakes to avoid.

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The HUDDLE is where the flooring industry can get together and talk about everything! Lead by Paul Stuart from Go Carerra who is joined by Daniel and Jose Gonzalez from Preferred Flooring.

https://www.preferredflooringmi.com

https://www.stuartandassociates.com

what's up flooring family

welcome to the huddle we're here every Tuesday at 3 P.M Central to discuss

maintaining forward progress in your flooring career uh pretty much any trade uh career

really but um since we're all in flooring we that's where we live uh this week

we're going to be talking about yeah that's what it's about uh we're gonna be talking about bidding

uh if you'll remember a couple of weeks ago we were discussing estimating best

practices and although they can be very similar we kind of look at estimating

and bidding uh kind of in two very connected silos so

the bidding to me is more of what you deliver to your customer your

estimating's in-house you take all that data and you create a an actual proposal

so some of the best practices on delivery of proposals to General Contractors and as well as end users or

maybe even your um you know a residential end user

um I'll just kick it off with a couple of things uh one is

when you're sending when we're sending out proposals to our general contractors we try to have consistency from a uh an

image and and data delivery standpoint to the GC so our our bid proposal forms

are all the same they're written in a PDF format so that our our uh the

different estimators or project Executives sending out bids can't go off the rails too far so that the format of

The Proposal is always the same it always has

um you know our project notes our job specific uh

exclusions and then our standard exclusions that apply to almost all of our projects

the difference between bidding to a general contractor or bidding to an end user is typically with a general

contractor we're bidding off a set of plans and specs so we'll state that we're bidding per plans and

specifications dated this date and these are the Scopes we're bidding with from

this drawing yeah this sheet this date

um we recognize any addendums that we've gotten uh prior to bid which is

important because we've had plenty of times not be delivered in an addendum and it did affect our scope and we had

to revise our our bid and um

you know the the GC that receives those bids knowing that I did not recognize a

particular addendum that had come out uh he knew that he needed to let me know get me the addendum I was able to revise

the bid before you know the bid uh time

um but with end users I typically go deeper and give them an actual scope of

work and I'll build that scope of work out telling them every single more

detail on every single item that I have figured so that's kind of how I do it

what about you guys how how's your um how's that landscape look for you guys

you probably should have let us go first pause you didn't have to lay it all out like that now we're going to go and say oh we just get crayons and colored

pencils and drama pictures well something something's going right I

mean uh you know Daniel's in Las Vegas with a a gold wall behind him so

you know it's all about perception right it's all about perception that's why he's doing that

uh you know we're still we're still very much in the in the learning process of the like uh I think from uh starting out

getting a lot of practice in the labor only and then realizing how many details

were actually left out when we were awarded the project when we helped bid on it helped us kind of structure our

own process uh so to speak um now we do have uh like I said there before

we started we don't have like an identical template that we all work off of very I mean they're all similar

because they come from the same program but uh the conversation we just had prior to maybe made me realize that

maybe we should have an identical checklist so to speak with everything like that but um

well that's what this thing's about a lot of times I yeah you know frankly we we we're friends and we talk on the

phone but at the end of the day these I mean we learn from each other you guys

taught me stuff and I've I've hopefully brought value to you guys as well and

that's what I think this is about from my audience as well as us together here there's plenty of ways that you can do

it right because everyone has their own way and typically when we're doing it we're um like that when we were talking

about estimating measure square that's the program we use so uh when we're building out our

you're doing our takeoffs and stuff and adding products in there when once we submit the bid it's all line items so

you get all your materials and all your labor line items 100 there with us

already but um depending on who you're submitting the bid to we won't

you know give them the price for every single line item is going to be this is what's included

this is the then after that it's we explain you know this is the scope this

is what's excluded and then right at the the bottom we always say

like the biggest thing is one prep is cosmetic only

and two moisture testing should be done by a third party not us can you can you uh go in you just uh

brought something up there that's really intriguing to me when you say cosmetic is that understood

by the clients um so because I think that's a great way to

say it and we we put like this plus plus or mine you know we try to be like small

cracks and and uh variations and it within the eighth inch excluding skim

coating I mean it's all this stuff that you gotta say yeah cosmetic is a really kind of encompassing term to use I think

because and I think that's we got that from um William Thornton from Target Sports and that's what you know talk to

him on the phone my brother talked to him on the phone a few times and it's like that's one of the one of the things he said he said including

cosmetic only because anytime something structural happens oh this concrete is

chipping up well I don't do the concrete I don't do anything structural I'm just

making the the top coat pretty so that way it can accept flooring and when you when what would you guys

not do in part of that cosmetic flooring let's say at a saw joint you have a half

inch lift from one side it cracked the concrete did was supposed to do and

cracked out the saw joint and then lifted and you got a quarter inch or

let's say a half inch difference between one side of this all joint the other

I think that all depends on uh how we bit it too right because

sometimes we'll include in there that um you know like like grinding or

something like grinding um or you know we'd like to go walk the

job first so we'll say we you know we'll put in there this and we'll mark it on the print too and we'll say you know

this cut joint was was Peak so it includes grinding on this cut joint but

um especially when you're bidding and you're going in blind and you can't really see anything

um like say new construction you get the plans before anything is even going up

and then you walk in there and the the construction of the concrete you know they put in a bunch of additives you

walk in there in every cut joint is peaked up right so um what we do is you know we we assess

that after the fact and since they already know that it's cosmetic only and if it's

really if it's something like that you have to look at the the science

behind the concrete and explain to them kind of all right we can grind this down

but after we do that and we patch it and we put resilient floor on it because you

know a lot of lbts cheap vinyls it could the the moisture in the

concrete could you know equal equalize and then this could essentially create

a debit or or something we kind of explain all that to them

and it's like does it mess with the structure still I don't necessarily think so unless you're

like Drilling and putting in like spray foam underneath it trying to make it not move but

we just have to be really thorough with uh with explaining to them but that's

the thing is once you read some of these bid specs they are not thorough in their explanations either yeah

exclusions and things like that because it's not perfectly clear you got to draw

the line somewhere and even on you know as you use the term uh cosmetic

you know basically the way we look at it is we'll do all your cracks and saw

joints and small holes but then you get into a situation where

you get to a job it's to say it's new concrete

and get to a job and it's getting VCT down hallways and it's chattered

everywhere just complete chatter it needs a grind and skim we would not do

that as part of our project that would be a change order right you guys approach it the same way

we have we I think that's where we are yes

yes we are starting to so so the problem that that we're having is and that we've had in the beginning is

that we approach everything as we install it right like even if you were to look at some of our proposals or our

beds like they're in systematic order like we have all the material at top and the material is in sequential order from

install from start to finish and same thing with with all the wine items you

know we start with the removal and I work all the way down until the finished product right because I'm doing the job in my head and that's I'm making sure

I'm not missing anything um so we were very much all inclusive in

100 of our bids in the beginning and started realizing that man we just we're

just getting our we're getting our asses handed to us on this how are these like why are they coming in so low and then

um through the the Freedom of Information Act you can actually have access to some of the the bibs that

you've lost uh

so we started looking at that and then we start like uh deconstructing our proposal and seeing where what was left

out and how it left out and uh unfortunately for us uh we've been

around for a long time not just as preferred Florence but we've been around long enough where people are

people are willing to answer questions right like everybody excludes everything they just

exclude it and say not not in not included or this is the executed from proposal they have a whole list of

things and it's like oh so that's where the Flopper

the contractor or the end user bridge is looking for the bottom number and they

see that one that one number that's all they're looking at doesn't matter if you have one sheet or a thousand sheets they just look at that last number it's like

finalist finalist finalists um so we're learning that but fortunately for us some guys say

let's go look at their line and let's see why they're they're a little bit more unless you know because I know that

they're including a lot they look at it differently

um I would say um you know we try to do it as Fair as you

can but you can only bid if you're bidding off a set of planes and specs you can only bid what the documents are

telling you you start digging in and using your your Spidey senses and

fluorine too deep and you you're gonna get thrown out unless you give them a

reason here's a little trick we use um like if there's a reason in the

documents that we're gonna we feel like somebody may not notice something or if

it's in a really obscure spot in the plans that we think it's going to make

us High we put that like specifically including this thing whatever it is

let's call it uh you know some some uh moisture mitigation but it's not in its

own spec and it's only listed on a detail in the drawing or something and I want a job in Ponca City a 380 000 job

over this and it was because I specifically stated

that I have moisture mitigation figured underneath all flooring as stated on

this sheet detailed this and that got and the value of that was a

hundred and twenty thousand dollars so yeah I had it in my bid but I also

told them the value of that and that it was included in My overall number

that made them make phone calls and and no one else included it right correct

so it went back out for rebid and I ended up winning that job

so you can use something like that to go ahead and add it one thing I wouldn't do

this just it's not a trick it just I don't send out an RFI on it if I feel

like I have something like that that's going to make a GC question someone else's low bid versus mine

and I got a a note that I can put in there that'll make them think oh my God we got to go with them they they read

everything this is obviously in the drawings because he listed the sheet in

the detail number and everything and in last minute I've been in the war

rooms as they call them of gc's plenty of times they are scrambling

and if you can give them a big note stating a lot of times they'll go with

your number because even though you're high because they know you have everything figured and especially if

you're telling them where you've seen that in the documents so that's right I like that

on RFI because I don't want them to go then go to an RFI send it out for all

bidders to not find what I found and you know use that I've also you know I'm

kind of spilling the beans here but I've also found notes in specs particularly

in the tile spec and they'll say you know

um for example they'll say you know waterproofing membrane or something or they'll say epoxy grout per uh tcna 118

blah blah blah whatever I'll go look that up and see if there's a discrepancy between the tcna book guideline that

they're referencing and what they're telling me to do and if there is a

discrepancy particularly if it's in my favor uh I will note that and say we're going

for tcna guidelines and you're pretty safe in that manner in

doing that and you also then end up creating a scenario where the you you

can get a competitive advantage over your uh competition

just by you know kind of digging in a little deeper and finding the the the method that works best

um so you're saying a little bit of knowledge about the product that and some extensive training prior to doing

the estimating that it actually benefit your bidding uh opportunities wow who

would have thought well not only that and if he ends up losing that and someone else wins it and it's not for the tcna and then that job ends up

getting messed up they're gonna end up losing a bunch more money anyways yeah

on top of that you know if you're going per tcna

guidelines which a lot of times that's where it's found that's where your advantage will be found because they

want you to install per industry standards regardless of whether an architect tells you to do most times

because if they're telling you to go outside the industry standard then they can start to get scary close to avoiding

a warranty but so if you're laying on the side of Industry standard and it's going to give you the advantage because

you took the time to go into your tcna handbook and actually look into it and

and discover that you can create an advantage for yourself I like the way you said that you um you separated that

number and actually put it in there you know this is the cost of the mitigation because I talked to on an electrical

engineer um he's actually my son's uh baseball coach and he said that when they go out

to bids especially when it's someone you know they're training someone new they say you have to ask these questions to

make sure all these other people are going to be including this stuff because we're not gonna not include it so we

need to make sure that either they're going to include it or the GC knows that

they they're supposed to include it but they didn't on their bid that way it's a Level Playing Field for them but I can

kind of see it both ways to where it's an advantage for you if you do and an advantage if you don't

yeah either way you're in a better situation than not doing anything obviously but

um you know if you if you just if you're Reliant uh on them getting an RFI and

then or sending an RFI and then getting an addendum now you you have leveled the playing field you're back on par with

everybody what I did was it also makes me come off or us come off more of an

expert like because we did this because we found this and this is here and you

you know when you note it like that I'm giving them the amount to be ducked off my overall bid if they want to get

Apples to Apples so I'm still giving them the mechanism to get there if they need to but um you know in the yeah I

like the heat of the battle it doesn't it doesn't always happen they're just like use that number because

that it's it's got to be right and sometimes at the same time they'll even go check but

I have a question for you so like um so it's kind of like a little State and Then followed by a question

um the statement that I'm gonna make is that essentially when you're doing that and you're breaking it out and you're

providing the information to the contractors you're showing them that you have their their client or the end

user's best interest uh at play there and uh I guess my question is would be

it and sorry about sound green or or a little naiva

when they have these final meetings and they're going over going over these uh final dollar amounts do you think that

some of this information is actually shared with the end user or the the guy

who's paying bills at the end of the day for this whole thing or is this uh they've already got their budget and their approval and they're not sharing

anything as long as they're within the the dollar amount or those parameters it depends on the end user but there's a

lot of times they get down to the nitty-gritty with the end user and have to explain to them why we use this guy

or why we use that guy and a lot of times if you've positioned yourself as the expert

you using this example uh which this was a a public safety center down in Ponca

City uh you know they they had to go back and re-bid the thing and they had to go show the owner why now as a

construction manager this bid has to be redone and then we got to re-bit it again and

we won it but we would have not won the job had that note been on there they would have gave the job to the other

crew would have been done I mean that's the thing too is

especially when you have it separated it can be to the points where this is how much it's going to cost for this but

after the moisture readings come back if you don't need it then you just take that line item right out of it yep

yeah I like that I like that that's a good piece of information qualifying your bid is

and and making it clear how you how what you have figured and why

um sometimes it'll kick you out but we find more often than not you'll find

these little nuggets in in the jobs where I mean we've had it from

um just bathroom elevations calling for Schluter metal but then the finished schedule column for bullnose something

that simple we find out what's the cheapest one and that's what we're gonna figure

this spot is just because both are both are there you know which way do you go

if if all things equal like it's a good set of elevations and a good finish schedule

I mean which one do you trust so we'll find out which one's the cheapest and submit on that

and then once you figure once they figure out oh no we wanted this oh we already won so this is again this is the

change order for this then correct yeah and and I know the change orders get a

bad they get a bad rap they do it a lot of the time it's out of our control well and I'm not against

them I don't think they're a bad thing all the time I mean the bottom line is the architects

love you guys if you're on this call but you know they get paid six percent typically of a project so on a 10

million dollar job they're not doing too bad to create a good set of bid documents and then manage that process

through right with a good GC to manage the process through part is basically

them uh approving the general contractor's application for payments for the owner I mean at some point the

GC is doing most of the management but in the early days doing the homework and

really getting those plans and specs done that's what they're expected to do and so all you can do is read off of

those and a lot of times your expertise is going to tell you something shouldn't

be done that way that's when I would say if you feel that way clearly note it and

make sure that you know sometimes we'll even give the cost for example we did a

bunch of uh uh elevated bathroom shower floors

well it the specs were so terrible uh the drawings were not great it showed

that it was depressed and so we figured mud setting had nothing to say about waterproofing

or what type of it had a plumbing pan liner the rubberized Plumbing pan liners

that are rubber sheet which are terrible for a commercial depressed floor

especially when you're only mud packing say two and a half three inches you need a liquid applied

um and then there are certain uh waterproofing membranes that

um like Mapei hpg can be used as a plumbing pan liner if you do it per

their instructions all that being said I knew that our our number that process is

way more expensive than somebody taking a piece of plastic or a piece of rubber sheet and laying it in and a lot of

times the the plumbers do that so the flooring guys don't even do that part A

lot of times on jobs putting the actual pan liner in it'll go down when they put their drain in and then you hope it

doesn't get a hole in it which is another reason never to use them if you're on this call I'd say try to

switch those things out for liquid pan liners anytime you can but I knew my bid

was going to be higher and I said perspect is my bear is my bid here is what's

really recommended by tcna please add twenty seven thousand dollars they accepted my base bid and we ended

up change ordering to that number that's awesome

putting details in the room finished schedule does that ensure being seen and

followed I think that just depends on how thorough someone's going to be with

reading through the paperwork and then actually going through and then like you said

checking out the discrepancies this shouldn't be done that way and it's either like you said you go on

there and say this is the base bid how you're specking it this is what should be added to get it you know to spec per

these standards and either that or submit an RFI right

yeah a lot of times I'll put in what I like tiled the most in this because there's the most variances here

um yeah and you got a handbook that is recognized by everyone right the tcna

guidelines right that's been around forever we don't really have something that strong in resilient or in carpet

that holds its weight as much as the tcna guidelines do the tcna handbook

so a lot of times if they'll reference something in in

um if they don't reference anything like this job I was telling you about as a multi-family with you know uh recess

slash student housing actually with recess slabs for the showers they didn't

put nothing in there so I referenced the tcna guideline even if I lose the job

I'm kind of trying to help them out and I'm I'm positioning our company as the experts I

mean we're we're using the industry standard and it shows that we're you know we at least open that book and uh

consider it when we're bidding love that you just uh

dotting your eyes and crossing your teeth and making swear of that you know you know something you just made me think about

too is uh and not a lot of good you're too far off track but if we have to dissect these plans and

and all of their terms and go by their Master contract why are they not

dissecting our our bits right like like are they it almost I got six months to

build the drawings in about 60 minutes to get the bids in because people you know Subs none of us send our bids in

super early to GCS because you don't want them shocked and you don't want them to call their buddy or and and even

I've had it happen where even when I had a good company that I've done a ton of business with some PM from another

company comes and joins their company and now he's in charge of running this bid and he's friends with someone else

and picks up the phone and lets him know so you know they're getting bids in up

to the last 15 minutes of the job typically if a bid is due at two two o'clock I'm submitting at 155. yeah like

you're submitting within 10 15 minutes of the project because you don't want to

get shopped do all that work for nothing and so they don't have time unless you bold something out really big and even

even the bigger GCS who have like they'll have an estimator that just handles finishes and then an estimator

that just handles the structural and then an estimator that just handles you know mechanical and electrical or

something of that nature you know I still think best practice is to make

it clear what you're bidding and then also clear what you're not bidding

in some cases um so it just depends on the bid

obviously you can go through a thousand different scenarios but the the real key is what can you put on that bed that gives

you a strategic advantage right right and how can you approach it

it's a competition and like I said earlier change orders are not the demon that everybody makes them out to be

they're necessary as part of the construction process and the better that

the architect is typically the better that the the the less amount

of change orders you're going to get I mean the better the documents are the least questions there are during bedtime

and you're going to get a more you know accurate bid from all parties but

sometimes that's not possible either and sometimes the owner doesn't want to pay the architect as much money as it would

take to you know kind of take it past the finish line and so the architect has

to kind of pull back in some ways on some of the services they provide and

that's when you get kind of a crappy set of drawings um so anyway it's it's about kind of

trying to find the Nugget that at least this part of the discussion has been about like where's the Nuggets

that you can either expose or take advantage of that give you the best possibility of winning the job as long

as you approach that in an ethical Manner and you're not trying to like clearly cheat somebody

but the fact is if you're new using your knowledge to give yourself an advantage that's an earned advantage right and not

only that is knowing your reps to especially when you know they're giving you free reign for like value

engineering or something like that or and it's really common these days especially because you just can't find

some of these products or they're 60 90 days out when after the bid is one they're like we're starting next week

like when can you get in so we had a project that was like that when you know they expect the carpet it was super

expensive the it wasn't going to get there until like two months after they wanted to be

done with the project and I was like look we can go with this other product it's the same color scheme

it's the same face weight it's going to perform the exact same and it's going to save the client 8 500.

it's like not all change orders are bad either sometimes you know you give them money back and the crazy thing is with

that is by doing that sometimes your margins actually go up because it's a it's a less expensive product and you

have a lot more wiggle room there to to work with so your margins can go up a little bit even

though you're selling uh a less expensive product

yeah I mean at the end of the day when you're you

know you're kind of talking about price per effort so you got to make more

margin on lower end Goods than you do than you have to on a higher and good that's how we look at things and so if

we have a 65 yard carpet we're not going to bid that at the same margin as a ten dollar yard carpet

you know um the effort doesn't change so you need to make sure your margins are covering

all your overhead costs unless you get into your estimating practices of

figuring overhead and approximate hours of overhead and all this management fee

and building that all out we do not we look at it like this is our raw our heavy costs and we're going to mark up

this line item this much this line item this much and on on through and

um and then we produce our bid off of that so as we were talking here you know

presenting of the bid is really what this is all about give yourself a reason to be

looked at right it's kind of like the resume thing I was taught a long time ago like have your bid form

a professional looking bit for me your guyses sounds like it's a professional bit form you want it to be something

that um you know stands out a bit and then B

is just make sure that you're uh and also recognizable like if you guys are

the firm I've talked to you know plenty of people you guys up there have a great reputation in Michigan so when somebody

sees your form with your logo in the same spot it's the same they get the your their their brain recognizes it and

they at least want to look at your number because it goes back to the The Branding episode that we talked about

right you gotta stay on brand all the time yep once your brand is recognizable

then you know that automatically makes people think oh I know who that is let's take a

look at that one yeah pull your bed up and take it take a look

at it even a second look sometimes and exactly and if you give them a

reason then to consider it which is when if you find an advantage you list it you

say why you bid it this way um then

it get it makes them just think for a second you know in that heated moment they have to think do I go with this

number with these guys who always give me good solid numbers

but they're five thousand dollars higher but they also said this thing that

they're looking at is worth three thousand eight hundred bucks so really

it's twelve hundred dollars you know now they're considering you have to you're stopping Them In the Heat of the fire to

consider something and brand is a big part of that Daniel

like you said yeah well you want them to you want them to

depending on what it is right the whole branding a portion of it like uh it's if

they're looking at ours they're like oh well this is this price and like oh these ones are like this like

all right what are they missing like I know that this project this is they're bidding this because this is their

strengths this is what they do this is what they're known known for um and then over here is uh they're not

really known for that but but so now they're missing something um and

it's not a bad thing to have them look at it like that and and hopefully they look at every project like that well

they haven't like that probably not but that's okay um well like I said it is a competition

to some extent I'll give a plug too I won't say the name but we have a

competitor that only does tile and man when they are good they're

really good they got they do good installation they're they're a good company

um when they're bidding certain large top when certain large tile jobs are Bid

we're it's tough to beat them like they have that kind of nailed down

um we get our fair share but it's just on these really particular tile type

projects uh they're just known for doing it the way that it needs to be done so

I've gotten I've lost a job or two to them even when I was low

yeah and that's not because I suck it's just because they've done that good

so kudos to them you've heard that they've earned that then that's what it is we've been in that position too to

where you know we're considered the experts in you know what we do so and

you know when you're going through the post bids and stuff though straight up tell you they're like you guys weren't the low bid but we sell them as as you

know yes you can go with them but these are the potential issues that you might be if you go with these guys it's pretty

much a hands-off approach as soon as they get on the the project you know exact everything is going to go and be

installed exactly how it should be yeah yeah and you know when you're I mean we all have our deals where we

you know get chose over uh we're not always low uh that's for sure a lot of times but

it's a service on the back side that you're talking about or the known for expertise but it's just an example how

it's not just possible for one company I mean I have a company here that we battle with on

those jobs that like I said you know they they'll get the nod on the big big tile jobs that are really complex you

know Olympic-sized pools that kind of stuff you know steam rooms off of it and and

saunas and showers and and onto a pulled deck and down into the pool and I mean

we've done auditoriums for or natatoriums before but a lot of them those guys are gonna get so anyway I'm

just showing you that The Branding is a big piece of your bidding being considered during midday and uh so

anybody new out there uh in the audience that has you know

um wondered why some companies maybe win a lot of work and why others don't part of

it's The Branding and so I would you know take advice from a previous episode I wish I knew that episode number but we

talked about branding and the importance of that in pretty good detail

yes it's uh it's not who you know but it's who knows you um and let's become

very uh very helpful over the last couple years for for us uh to kind of shift gears and

have that different mindset um but also anybody out there who's got other ideas

on some of that and other angles like let us know like we're still learning too man like we're just we're just sharing what we

what we know now and what works for us now but man like I'm open I'd like to learn a lot more

yeah and and I think one of the things that's really

been kind of special about this podcast is we that's the attitude of the podcast

like we want to learn too and we would love more interaction live on the

podcast thank you for everybody who comments and likes our stuff on oh yeah 100 media networks but uh we'd love for

you to come on and listen to us and chime in with some q a uh you know be

heard and um it can it can make the podcast bring people sometimes bring up

different questions than than what we can think of in our in our uh you know

In the Heat of the Moment here but so I encourage you this is my plug to like and subscribers if on our uh

YouTube if that's where you're consuming it or if you're catching out one of our social channels or one of preferred

flooring social channels please give it a thumbs up you know drop a comment in

uh maybe you agreed with some of this maybe you didn't maybe you disagreed and you could do something right

conversation so maybe you have the most bomb uh bid form out there that nobody

knows about and you're willing to share some of that information uh with the industry right and you just you just had

that you're sitting on it is burning a hole in your pocket you need to share it and you just give us a call and help us

out man like well we'll share your brand you share some information come on now let's

scratch each other's backs man like we're all in this together to some extent right

yeah well there there is a um element of of uh all of us flooring

guys trying to band together and I I think you see that when you go to the conferences you know I just got back

from two pretty much back to back from views Alliance which I'm a fuse member

and in our area and then uh fcica and they

were both great a lot of a lot of great learning opportunities but that's also

where you can do some of these um Discovery discussions with other flooring companies who are more than

happy to help you so all right guys anything closing out

on kind of bidding post kind of getting your quantities and estimates from

whether you again just as a refresher you can Outsource this thing now there's very professional companies doing it

um one in the case quantify was

and went through a lot of stuff I think that was a really I hope a lot of people have watched that

because that's that was a really good episode I think and I think if you pair that with this you'll kind of get the

big Concepts on how to best estimate and then um

producer proposal to your client yeah I think you know just closing out

it's uh take nuggets from everyone that you talk to just like we did and

include those in your inclusions and exclusions because like I said

everyone's going to want you if they don't want you to do moisture testing you got to let them know that it still

needs to be done whether it's in the documents or not because you're liable

as soon as you start installing if you don't ask for you or anything

that's you you just bought that if anything happens in most cases yeah and the reason that

is just to build on that for a quick second is because it may not specifically say moisture testing but

what is it going to say is that like there's language typically in a set of specs to say you know once you start

installing except is indication of acceptance acceptance yep right so

there's there's these little Clauses everywhere throughout the documents that'll end up catching

you anyway so take Daniel's advice yeah and the other one is um the the cause the floor prep

being only cosmetic because you know once you read over the specs and everything and know your standards

because they'll they'll stay in there it sometimes it doesn't say anything it just says floor prep to ASTM f710

standards and then you're automatically required to know that so yeah do some

research yeah know that

prep is cosmetic only that document is probably the closest thing that the resilient side has that I

think it's leaned on a lot and all it is that's it a lot

um I guess I guess for me is if I were sharing advice of anybody I would say

don't be afraid to ask questions even if you have to question yourself right like

if you miss it and you submit it man you missed it and you submitted it and you're like uh don't rush through it if

you don't if you don't have enough time to dedicate to doing a large bid

um after the estimate is done then just don't try to rush it just say you know what

call that time as learning experiences and or experience period and move on to the

next one man like there's no sense in Russia at least until yeah yeah well I mean there's

going to be sometimes you stretch that out we certainly skirt the line sometimes on

you know should we bid this or should we not and maybe walk in a way

um but once you've been doing it long enough you can make some educated guesses uh I wouldn't

I I fully recommend going in with full knowledge but every once in a while

especially on branded jobs where you've done 30 of those hotels in the last five

years or something and you got some questions you can go off of your experience and say okay I'm pretty sure

this is gonna how is how it's gonna be and go ahead in that case then and do what I was talking about earlier put it

on your bid form you figured it this way because there was no documentation telling you

and so you figured it this way so we do have a question from LinkedIn right here from Eric he says estimating and

quantifying materials are not equal any thoughts on why our industry by and

large has sales people handling the pricing of jobs other trades and gdc's rely on estimators to put numbers

together but in the flooring world this seems like an estimated role ends with the takeoff

yeah I that's a tough one I know plenty of

companies have sales people we all of our bids and our company is produced

with either project managers or estimators and then still reviewed by a

project manager or project executive because I feel like you have to have

somebody with applicable knowledge to getting work done produce the bid you

know yeah not just a Salesman trying to sell something and right if you get on

Facebook and read the salesman or the that's what I was going to get into

because you go on there and it's like on some of these groups they're like sell sell sell worry about everything else

later it's like yeah and you'll hear about anything that goes into the project it's just what you said they

they're just basing it on Knowledge from something else that they've done so if you just throw a number at it and it

sticks hey you just won the job and then that's when you know you have all these installers complaining hey you missed

this there's no transitions include any floor prep uh this material shouldn't be

installed here it's like there there's so much that goes into it and the

salesman are just sell sell sell and then that's where that fine line is between people like us that are trying

to include everything and not miss anything and then you got those people that are just here's a number accept it

and then try and get change orders later so and and you know what uh and I know

we said the witnessing closing a long time ago no let's go that is um your

unit 100 correct on all of that and so there is a difference between a Salesman

and the bid process right like if you have a Salesman who is uh uh from start

to finish you're only the customer or the client or the end user's only point of contact there's going to be a lot of

information that isn't going to be uh relayed uh and it's going to be missed

and not only that there's going to be a disconnect from the installation crew and the salesman too because because

they're not always going to be on the same page so because think about it

no you're fine you're fine yeah no I get it and and just to add to that is recently

um I just had to have it because we are in labor we do labor only for some other uh stores too uh and recently I had to

have a conversation and send an email out to a salesperson that was once he sold the job he was down down right

didn't follow up didn't do anything and I'm sorry but that doesn't fly with me bro like it's your job to communicate

with the client it's your job to do all this I give you the information but if you don't relay any of it I can't talk

final numbers with your client or the client at all like that's supposed to be new right and that's where it was very

obvious the disconnect from salesperson with zero flooring experience as far as

the install the processes um and the length of time to someone who installs and works on the sales side as

well yeah so in short we don't have anybody with the title sales salesman or

sales person in our company we have a business developer who goes out and finds opportunities and and and talks

with you know developers and general contractors and Architects and

drums up new business but salesman we don't have one because

to me the the person's salesman and what I was saying when I rudely interrupted

you was a Salesman their their job titles done when the

sale's done right so like you want to manager or an executive

putting those numbers out uh any manager that approves a bit in

our company they're the ones who end up having to manage the job and that's because they know we you know

we know that that's going to put in their head like I can't just scrum through this thing real fast because I'm

the one that's gonna have to deal with any problems that come on the backside of winning the job and getting doing the

project so so you know having the manager involved

from the beginning we have estimators but even our estimators don't just send out numbers they quantify they'll put

the bid together but then it has to go across the PM or project executive's desk for full approval and review

so uh Eric did say good answer Paul loved the collaborative approach definitely tough in the meat grinder

that is bidding on a daily basis and it is it's it's tough out there

says that that's when he he's glad that he he measures his own projects and stuff so he doesn't have to rely on

someone measuring sure and uh when you physically do the job you know exactly

the entire process of how to put that puzzle piece together yeah yeah it's nice if you do it's just

so it's more frequent in residential obviously to get out and measure the job

uh some commercial you get the opportunity I'd say 20 of our jobs we

get the field measure um but are you going to go through and field measure a 155 000 Foot Elementary

School yeah yeah that's that's probably not going to happen yeah you might go

and verify a couple of Dimensions um measure some some classrooms but

you're you know measuring the whole thing by hand out in the field it can get tough back in the day probably would

have happened by me right go with my color pencils and my little graph paper and my ruler

not to say that it wouldn't be a better way to do it it just the time consuming

nature of of measuring something that you may not field measuring something on

a large scale that you may not get awarded you know yeah a fair amount of time compared to doing

a takeoff off of a set of drawings so a lot of times if I do go out to the field I'll take a couple of key

measurements and ask them even if they have a coded floor plan may not be to

scale but I can set it to scale and measure square right and use my filled measurements and take them from

different parts of the building maybe I get five or six or eight measurements and then apply that to that drawing

yeah yeah that's a it's what I do now back in the day now I'm just going to measure everything

I like technology now ish sometimes I hate it I still I appreciate it when it

works when it works yeah exactly well there's a lot out there again just

to recap this proposals and in some consistent format

make sure you're including uh you know you're putting in your exclusions

specifically what you're excluding we just a little note on ours where we

have job specific exclusions it's because we found when we added something

to our standard exclusions it was it it was just a word or two and it would get

overlooked because it's in the same spot same exclusion spot as all the other bits so

we added a spot for job specific exclusions so maybe a remodel we're going to specifically exclude moving and

that's where we'd put that kind of thing and our standard exclusions is always

you know excessive unforeseen floor prep you know and we go through all that

stuff final cleaning protection of floors um that kind of stuff so

so making your bid somewhat consistent if you can find some nuggets from by

using the industry knowledge whether it's you know ASTM f710

for resilient or the tcna handbook for tile uh or something in

cfi's stuff or carpet or the carpet and rug instituty right something that gives

you like this strategic Advantage because of knowledge and it doesn't it's

not a discrepancy in the drawings it's something that brings you a nugget in

knowledge so you know take advantage of those opportunities to win a job and

um you know don't be scared to change orders if they're warranted I mean

yeah you ain't gonna pay for everything that changes on a project don't don't think that you're gonna just this is the

number and I'm not going to change anything I just I just had to bid to where uh

right in the spec that said that no change orders are going to be allowed and as soon as they accepted ours

something happened and it was like well we're gonna need a change order and they were like okay things happen sometimes

it's things out of your control and just know that don't let anyone bully you to

take money out of your pocket when you know it's warranted that it's not your fault especially

yeah just remember it's a business you're in business you're not it's not a popularity you know you're not

you want to have a good reputation and a good relationship with everybody but at the end of the day

you you have to do what's right for your employees do what's right for your

industry do what's right for your business and what's right for yourself so you know if you kind of look at it

that way you're doing your employees a disservice in many instances if you're taking these

change orders and there's always going to be some negotiating sometimes you win some sometimes you lose some but for the

most part just don't look at change orders as a a terrible thing and also don't look at

them as a way to just put this Rock Bottom BS number in and then think

you're going to go change order your way to profit don't do it that way either that's unethical

from the start if you're under bidding a job and you think you're going to come in and and become profitable through

change orders that's ridiculous bid the job appropriately but don't be scared of

valid change orders they're they're necessary in our business in our building practices

I just want to know let everyone know that when before we started this we said

that this was going to be a really quick one and then we ended up going the full time anyways and uh FCA magazine did just put out

their an article online about the episodes that we have coming on this month so go on there see which one that

you want to listen to definitely join the zoom or you know any social medias and come and ask questions thank you for

everyone that uh is on here saying hello Dirk Jorge um Kelly

Eric you know we got yeah we love it we appreciate it thanks for the support

yep yeah and just so you guys know I'm always on LinkedIn or any socials looking at your guys's work too like I

love it a lot more than me I'll have like 8 000 notifications by the time I click on the

the app which is horrible I should probably be better about that I think I can do better too my friend

all right guys well that brings us to the end I want to uh Echo what Daniel

just said and and Jose is hey thanks everybody for joining us thank you I really do appreciate the feedback and we

it feeds us it gives us a reason we're on episode 41 42 42 42 yeah we're here

uh we're gonna continue to be here and your guys's participation makes it all worth it and we hope that you grab some

nuggets out of these conversations and feel free to reach out to us and uh come

on sometime those episodes that's on FCI Magazine's list that you may want to be on uh you

know reach out to support a go Carrera Eduardo says is there another Apple

watch this time no but we'll probably put out some uh

some more notice for the next giveaway I'm sure there'll be something popping up yep

all right guys once again thank you so much it's been a pleasure and as awesome

I've learned some stuff so we'll see you guys next Tuesday and uh chat in between

sounds good take it easy

thank you