This week on The Huddle Paul, Daniel, Jose have special guest Jake Stefan from Shaw Contract and discuss different ways manufacturers and distributors can positively impact the installation community in the coming year.

We also would like to congratulate again our winner for the 2023 Forward Progress Scholarship, Carissa Parr.

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GET TRAINED! Find a list of training dates here: https://gocarrera.com/resources/training/

The HUDDLE is where the flooring industry can get together and talk about everything! Lead by Paul Stuart from Go Carerra who is joined by Daniel and Jose Gonzalez from Preferred Flooring.

https://www.preferredflooringmi.com

https://www.stuartandassociates.com

week on Tuesdays at three o'clock to discuss maintaining Forward progress in

your flooring career this week uh is a extension of last week

and part of a series now so we figured at the beginning of the year we'll

discuss what can we do this year that will make some meaningful change in the industry

and so this week we're talking manufacturers and distributors and we have a guest today Jake with uh

Shaw right yep I got that right yep which show contract thanks for having me Paul

well welcome we're glad that you uh were able to join us today and as usual we

have the two Mainstays of Daniel and Jose for her going out of Michigan uh thank you guys

for once again being on and contributing and and uh just being real

leaders in the industry so awesome bro thanks for having us again you know it awesome

well this week I pulled a Jose anybody who joins our our podcast every week knows it Jose is usually in the truck

going somewhere uh it's my turn so

um that being said we're gonna kind of discuss some ideas that

manufacturers um you know that we fill from uh you know just a quick background most you

know that I own a floor covering company out of Wichita and I'm also founder of

go Carrera um there's a lot of

things over the 20 plus years that I've been in the industry that has changed

with manufacturers uh as it applies to training and really how it applies to the

installation Community uh Jose and Daniel have been installers for how many

years gentlemen 20 something yeah 20 20 something and

they know they're uh they don't have a flooring company called preferred fluorine for the last several years

and um I'm sure they have some insight here too so the first piece that I'll bring

up or that that was on my list is what manufacturers not use

certifications anymore and uh I know there's some liability and

stuff that came about but true certifications and

um of the past seem to be pretty much

um you know pass down to your training entities like CFI and such so

um I guess whoever wants to chime in on that question

so I'll chime in with what I was told before Jake does I know that he's uh the manufacturer with the with Shaw but

um and this is all speculation this is what I've heard through conversations with uh

Tech reps uh is because of the liability that that they

were um acquiring right like when they certify as a manufacturer or do the

training for certification they were um assuming responsibility for that

particular installer or that company and if there were any failures then it was coming back on their training program or

this is what we learned or you certified them and I think that that's where where some of the uh

the issues were coming about and and so they changed the literature a little bit change the the way they were approaching

it um and I get it you don't want to adopt somebody else's negligence right and by

certifying somebody um as a manufacturer you are essentially doing okay you're pretty much assuming the liability right because it's like

yeah they came through they're certified they're approved to go on your job and then if they start doing something wrong

then the customer can be like you sent these guys to me like you said that they had to be certified and they are now up

mm-hmm it's similar to like I mean uh

the automotive industry my my cousins high up with Ford and

they call it Ford factory training and ASD certified will get a

certification a third party um Ford standpoint is Factory trained

yeah right the same thing with when you look at protect all the manufacturer the when we went through that I mean this

had been 10 years ago now when we went through that and it was not a certification it was a factory training

yeah they're just giving you they're educating you on their product and limitations

and then uh what do you got to add to the object yeah oh what was that Paul

yeah I just going I was just gonna say quickly some manufacturers still trained

I mean uh or verify or at least the last time I checked like Nora do

they still get a certification Nora still gives certifications but when I went through there if you're

they require you to actually make a visit back every three years unless one

of the tech reps comes to visit you and sees your work on a project so that actually happened to us so I am Nora

certified and the tech rep when we were on a project actually came out and like watched this

work ask me questions got down and and you know actually seen how we were

putting it in when when the adhesive was spread and stuff like that yeah that's something that I was gonna as far as

certification I know I don't know if Shaw has done it in the past but I know there our trainings

offered or we can have our Tech Team out in the field if there are specific projects that you are working on that

need that kind of oversight or Technical Training

um it's for certification it does come out of a liability uh because you have a paper your training bills are off it

doesn't mean that you're going to do how you did in the actual training certification out in the field so I

think that's what it comes down to but if there's ever an instance where you need oversight or a help in a training

that's something that we could offer by getting somebody down at the Mill whether it's a complicated installer

installed that it's just an added feature that we can assist with

so with that that's on a project by project basis do you guys uh log that

anywhere I think the missing piece is that we we've stripped installers now I

understand the liability piece but we've kind of stripped installers from having ways outside of go career and of course

I'd love every installer to be on go career at the end of the day we've

somewhat stripped installers of the ability to prove their their skills and

their training and their dedication to the craft outside of go Carrera

um they can't show a certificate unless it's you don't mean

um they don't have a way to prove their their um

expertise yeah you know what I mean himself from other installers

or else right and correct me if I'm wrong unless it's just word for mouth that hey these guys do a great job

they're they're trustworthy they'll put it down they'll do it correctly file a protocol are there other certifications

out there outside the Nora that you talked about Jose uh yeah there's there's plenty of

education programs out there for for every Silo in the flooring industry

um you know CFI runs a a general run any fct runs uh resilient and then they're

also doing subfloor subform prep um uh CTI

great training what

what you know who Shaw contract is they know who you know Mohawk and Millikan they

know those names so they don't know that and they they don't know the different

levels so you can say your CFI train you know certified

won't be doing a C2 type project you know what I mean you're you're

absolutely right about that there is no um there's no template that says that you

know hey this is this is my card this tells you where I'm at as far as my expertise and my level there's nothing

like that you throw a name out there and you can say whatever you want after you throw

um a training point there's no manuf that I think what I was

getting at was there's no there there's no clout to it that's what go career is trying to do or is doing is you know

giving a metric to be able to be utilized by ingesting all of the training and then providing the hammer

rating but at the end of the day the void of manufacturer training I

guess I I'm a little curious on standardized training calling it Factory

trained or factory whatever and still logging that that installer completed

that training when you go out to projects and you help them through a project that's that's helping them

through a project but it's not you know our goal is how do you uh

significantly improve the installer's life their their standard of living and

they don't get that you know just because a manufacturer came out to a

project and yeah the project went well but they don't get to carry that forward to other to the rest of their working

career um you know you don't get to say that yeah I was trained by Shaw or I was

trained by Mohawk or whoever right and show a contract such a great company a

large company that um is there any standardized training

Jake to your knowledge where installers could go to a shop facility or a shop

supported facility and get off the job off the project I should say training

not to my knowledge but I'm sure it's something that we could do I don't know if it would be so much as a

certification um there definitely is an opportunity and local rdc's when I was down in

Chicago in the Chicago Market we had one outside of the city where we had

specific installers come in for sheet vinyl training but it's just training

itself it's not so much a certification so I could definitely follow up with the technical team in the mill to see if

that's something where that'd be of interest in local markets to get a group

of installers out there for say it's heat welding or say it's any type of installation and then have a shawback

program for training I just personally haven't done anything to my knowledge on it yeah and it

doesn't necessarily be a certification I wouldn't think just a factory Train That's How Ford got through it uh you

know even the training can be recognized and and just a little background as well

like uh the hammer agency he's talking about for gold Carrera what it is is it it gives the installer a rating it for

their their skill set and okay I don't know like how many trainings are actually recognized and if it adds to a

hammer rating Paul um and I'm I'm sure that you've you're factoring a lot of training and education programs in there too for the

hammering about everything even even after this workshops uh like in the Tile

World they have uh you know the npca afternoon Workshops the different

distributors even those are recognized it doesn't give you a bunch of hammer obviously your staff is pretty much so

recognize that there's still 100 other installers that didn't go to it and you

still did and you still participated and you still probably learned something and

so as long as that training is uh cat is uh cataloged I mean the empathy that did

the training saves the fact that say Daniel did a

one-day Workshop right that we we recognized all the two-day workouts for

Schluter a two-day workshop you know um

and like I said just afternoon workshops in PCA even and each one has a different

weight inside of our algorithm so it gives different uh amounts of hammer

based on the years of experience that you have in a ton of other factors so it's hard to say that this training

equals that amount of weight because it depends on your previous training as well as your

um you know years of experience and work history but if the training that you're talking of

Jake is possible to get um set up where

and industry-wide right there's we have a huge need in the industry to get

trained so I'm not even saying one manufacturer can solve it all but if the manufacturers had a factory training

that they logged when the installer goes and you can fill out a questionnaire that

says you know what type of training it was uh how many hours the Hands-On how many hours of

uh book study tests all that stuff and you just fill out the questionnaire as

long as like for go careers purposes as long as your career can go and verify and prove

that that scholar took training they get to get that that value added to their him already

and they carry that training forward it's a way to incentivize installers to

to especially independent installers that are not under our company sales not

employee installers to go get trained spend the money and the time off to get

trained because it means you know more more work orders and more pay down the

road for them and um the training yourself Jake might not hold weight alone because it's just

quite as in training with a certification in that same field

and now all of a sudden now that that holds more weight so you're taking this glob of of certification let's just call

it like let's say C1 or C2 or something like that from cf5 just use that right but now I'm adding on to that now I have

this now I have the formal Technical Training and the science behind everything now I also have you know

Shaw's training for for their carpet and their bankings and what they have and that's exactly add more weight to that

uh initial certification um that that installer has devoted their time to yeah I mean think about just

just as adding tools to a tool belt right it batters their their personal skills

their training skills their installation skills and then it also helps us out

when our materials do go down of we want it to go on correctly and get that train

training so that we don't have issues in the back end it helps everybody out in

the in the overall sense you know and a lot of like what Patrick when I know you

had said something before we started record but you know um like our relationship with Patrick didn't start as a a sales relationship it started as

an installer talking to the sales rep trying to figure out the problems and making some decisions from an installer

standpoint exactly hey how'd you guys fix that how'd you guys know about that um and

are you talking to Daniel like he's like oh you guys really do good work you know

what you're talking about know what you're doing yeah and uh it helps us out from the manufacturer's perspective even

though I'm a manufacturer's rep but if they can add anything to my tool belt of hey I can talk through a higher maybe

not as high a level as an installer but if I can get some basic knowledge of the actual install as it's going down it

helps out all all sides of the part of the group you know right and then it

also helps uh with material that you're getting respect right like

well I think I'm gonna jump I want to say thank you for bringing that up Jose

the fact is that say you're C2 you said and they get a shot you know Factory training it's like a booster to your

other certification that you already got it's like it adds fuel to the Hammer

rating fire so to speak and so it's more value if you're already certified then you go to a shop Factory uh training if

the weight is heavier uh because of the foundation your ability

that I don't want to get real nerdy on the algorithm that creates the skill score because it's very complex but

essentially what you said is correct and now one other point to or one other

benefit is that you know as an installer going through and uh they may be C2

certified but one of the problems that I've found in the commercial uh Floor

Covering industry is the backings changing and the you know recycled

backings and then getting rid of PVC and then adding PGC back in and then some bland and you know how many backing

changes has the industry had in the last 10 years you're not getting that on a certification you're getting that from

the mill when you guys change your backing I had a 2 000 yard job fail because one of our installers and I will

not name the um the mill but they had a new vacuum

system that required certain price and it'll tell you the processor but surfaces

and those processes were not followed to the seat while the installer had no idea

uh heck even our PM was uh somewhat are you talking about because you had to

prime before you spread the adhesive I saying anything Daniel I'm not saying

stuff you see what he's trying to do there yet but

is and the mill helps us out good behind and you know but the fact is that

failure never had to happen with proper training the failure never had to happen and with over three billion dollars in

failures annually in the flooring industry if you include moisture failures

could we not at the industry as an advocate for installers find a way that

you have that how much how much better is our industry by having the

the failure most likely it's a silver million dollar

deduction from failures right so so I hope that manufacturers this year

really focus on the installer and and form some training don't call it certification let's just call it Factory

or uh Factory informed I don't care how loose this is it as long as the training

is really valuable and you can and people and

people can check to make sure

that's a that's a step in the right direction so we just had the the Taylor

you're breaking up a little bit Paul so we just we just had the Taylor rep in

here um right before we got on here right and he actually just told us that

it received by a certified you would actually get a lifetime warranty when you use their pieces in your projects as

opposed to their 10 or 15 year whatever comes standard right no that's that's installation

but how how can we get with the manufacturers and actually

have them put in their documentation if we have If We Hold certain certifications then

um even our labor warranty is extended on

top of the manufacturer's warranty on some stuff where it's instead of a 10-year warrant you get a 15 year teen

year you get a 20 years backed by not only the manufacturer but the

organization organization you're certified from so that way they can actually see the value that they're

getting as opposed to just hiring someone off the street and hoping that they get a warranty at some point

yeah I I

think that the extended warranty on labor in particular

you know we're we're working on one thing that I think you know we'll be

chatting on this offline but basically once you reach a certain Hammer ready uh

we're working with insurance companies to provide uh the same labor warranty

that like installed us which will give the uh

like a five-year or ten year labor warranty if you're if you're three

hammers are above as a failed piece to the installer for

when they're they're out there you know selling their services but from a manufacturer to stand behind

it what did you think about that Jake yeah again it's if you can add more to

it I don't know how it would work with but you're giving me homework and get the technical team and warranties I I

don't know how that would work along with the set warranties that we have in place but if they do go hand in hand I

don't see an issue but again don't don't shoot the messenger but I can bring it up up the totem pole and exactly see how

that would work though of how can you get that extended warranty if you have a separate certification

I just I don't know personally how that would work without going up the ladder

yeah it's all a process right it has to start some it starts with everything starts with an idea that's that's exactly all we're doing right now is

we're spending on how can the manufacturers and Distributors help oh you know one of our Distributors just

brought the Taylor rep in here to talk about their their products and just doing stuff like that is really

beneficial because they have some products that um we didn't know about right so it's all about you know just just making your

rounds and as a as a salesperson I know how busy you are because I know how much I email you per day

but it's all good I can only imagine what your inbox looks like game but but

also you gotta think it's not only and it just comes out to the whole overarchy thought on this is it's nothing but

beneficial for you for us for installers for everybody so if we can team up and

start this idea and Spark it and ignite it and then something turns out from it

that's that's kind of nothing's gonna get done unless you have conversations like this around it you know whether

it's I'm boots on the ground up here in Michigan but I bring it to a VP who covers the Midwest that BP then covers

it to a divisional and then it goes from there starts like wildfire but like I said you guys got me

homework now I'll I'll follow up get with the technical team and get with other

people up in upper management on it to see exactly what can be done with that

and then like last week we had Uh Kevin in here from Roberts and he's on

Facebook right now and said did I ask the Taylor up his warranty we'll supersede the flooring warranty if it

doesn't it won't matter much and you know that that's another thing too it's

you can see these these manufacturers actually going to

to places and and spreading the knowledge that they have right and that's that's a wonderful thing I

love it and if you look at it so we've we've talked um with the nafct about how

and that's the National Association of Floor Covering technicians if you if you

didn't know um we've talked about before how these

manufacturers are dropping their certifications and how you know that that liability but it's about getting

these other training entities and actually saying all right your guys's training holds its

weight in gold um how can we partner with you because just speaking about resilient she Goods

right sheet vinyl um you can use the knowledge from learning one product

and kind of translate that over to all the other products

so to have just every manufacturer doing their own thing

doesn't necessarily make sense anymore but getting these manufacturers to

actually back these uh different organizations is something else and that's something that I don't have to

deal with but it's something that I want to talk about right because if we can have all these manufacturers back in

backing us up that that just makes us more powerful well and I I wanna that's one of the

reasons that Taylor does that is because they're so closely aligned with CFI

so they you know if others could the

line and I don't know all the Dynamics in the background of the training entities with managers but

we're all you know it's like the industry's working on um you know bringing in more people and

bringing in more people and I support that but something you said in a

conversation earlier today Daniel is that it's been brought up by multiple

people and probably agreed upon is that we have plenty of installers we're

lacking quality we're lacking uh first off a way to verify or know that they

their quality outworking them and then finding out they're not on a job

so that's kind of where we're trying to build plenty of guys that are working uh

but we're really lacking those quality uh installers right

you said that earlier did you yep yeah it's a we have a surplus of installers

it's just not not many of us are are qualified to the standard that we need to be in the

industry and that if you look at it from a whole

um just on the commercial side there's so much science that goes behind the adhesive the products that you have to

know and then you pair that with actually having to know the science behind what you're installing on so if you're installing on wood what kind of

wood is it if you're installing on concrete are there any additives in it

are there any is there anything topical on it what do you have to do if there if there's something on there

so it's there's so much that goes behind it

and there's so many people that are in it and and the stores that are selling these

jobs that that's what the the sales men are there for they're there to sell and then

they worry about the installation afterwards because like I said I'll go on these these um dealer groups and

stuff and that's what they say it's it's sell sell worry about whatever later as long as you get that stuff nothing's

mattering no no you know don't let me take away from that but I want to ask you a question here Jake

how much of product knowledge are you as a sales rep um in the area what is the requirement

of product knowledge on your behalf um um as a sales rep versus a tech rep I

know Tech is more technical but I'm just curious like what is required of you

um to maintain and and how do you promote uh the knowledge of the product make sure that

the installer isn't set up for failure or or the company that you are helping

select a product isn't set up for failure yeah so what's unique so I came

out which I'm out of college I went I lived Georgia first three and a half

months so I went through the shot training program where it was all product knowledge again it does come

down like you said just we know so much about the products and where they go but once we get it out there we get the

specification we need to back it with we need to make sure it's the correct installation so we have all this product

knowledge and product training having the tech team as support I think

we I guess all manufacturers could put a little more emphasis on Technical

Training and installation training because right now as we re we rely on our installers for that knowledge to

pair up with the product knowledge right so as myself being a product specialist

for Shaw contract I would rely on my installers then for

that installation specialist so it's got to be the give and take of we can't expect all of our installers to know our

product in and out just as I I don't know the installation in and

out and that's where I need to rely on installation or my installers for that but like you said if there's the

training that I was offered was mostly product minimal installation what we could do is get that flip-flop

of we try to install or we tried to help out with the acknowledge for ourselves

if I could get help on the installation knowledge it just matters everybody's

chances for Less failures better installs better product better projects

being installed and just happier customers overall so a greater

percentage of success equals a greater percentage of Word of Mouth business which turns into exactly

it creates it creates Word of Mouth for everybody everybody's happy in the long run and you don't have to look at

project two to three times after it's installed whether it starts to fail anything fails so overall it just it

makes sense to just team up and we're all doing it for the same reason so yeah ultimately

from a brand standpoint when a manufacturer has something fell whether

it's the installer's faults or not the end user typically has some type of

strike in their mind about that manufacturer and that's what we we try to mitigate that right because we've

been in the hospitals where they're like we hate this product this product sucks and then we go and rip it out and it's

like the product doesn't suck it's just it wasn't installed correctly so that what

the lifespan was shortened a lot like if it was installed correctly they wouldn't

be having the issues and they wouldn't hate that product and that's something that we we tell the customers it's like

one we don't want to throw the installer under the bus because they did the best that they could they did the best with

the knowledge that they had was it enough no but the the manufacturer shouldn't pay for what that installer

did at the same time it's it's a great product and if we installed it you'll see that and I mean I'm not

at some point they've already made up their mind and they're going to switch out the product right but it's like we

just want to let you know that down the line if this product gets spiked again it's not a bad product and some of it

too is like if they didn't maintain it properly if they were

using them to maintain it because in their head uh it's been

institutionalized and that's what they've been doing for 20 years but the product specifications does not to do it

a certain way they could have killed the life of the product too so I guess I guess that's a education part goes beyond just starting

at the substrate and working your way up right as the system so the end user um should also be educated as far as

maintenance yeah just going off of that I mean I have one where the school district went

from VCT were they stripping wax twice to three times a year they want to use

LBT and they think it's a magical floor that you don't have to do anything to because LBT then they didn't change

their casters everything gets scraped up it's basically having cement put any salt salt melt anything going on

it just got scratched up we're like well it's LBT we don't have to do anything to it so that was coming off of no matter

what product was down it was going to get scratched up no matter what because it's starting from the installation from

the subfloor all the way up and then teaming up with Furniture just to maintain your like our one our product

to the installation because if it starts getting chewed up by Furniture it makes not only a manufacturer look bad the

installers look bad the end user is going to point a finger at somebody and because we're down first it's going to

be one of us foreign they even have stuff out there now it's

where you can um refinish LBT we went through a presentation yeah uh with the fcica and

who was that um I forget what I mean it was my pay wasn't it oh it was my pay yeah yeah they they got a topical it's a temporary

fix right but it's a selling place I never strip out

one there's uh there's some other Coatings and stuff you can put on top

like a solution but

you know I think everybody's moving to lvt um really messed up uh this just side note

the way lvt was sold for the first uh 10 years uh didn't do it any favors uh people

thought I couldn't scratch that uh you know it was impervious to

any problem didn't need any maintenance ever uh it

you know obviously we know different today but um 10 years ago

when there was not as many manufacturers of lvt maybe 15 would be a better time

frame but you know it was kind of sold as the clad back then you know many

people who specified all the Architects or designers or or uh end users who may

buy you know have been around them expect still have this expectation uh you know from a sales standpoint when

we're selling lvt we always talk about that it will scratch we promise you it will scratch if you

don't want to take care of it in a proper manner and maintain your dirt uh it will scratch

so but from an install standpoint uh back to that a little bit

you know as manufacturers if they could do an installer bulletin

with my only my this is my second uh thought installer bulletin that could be

distributed and and actually got in the installer's hand on when different

backing systems come out because you may be certified to be an awesome carpet layer

um but when a new backing comes out and I'm just talking carpet right now

but this applies to almost all of them especially lvt uh that the tailors for

that backing when the chemistry of that backing can just so to stop the processes that need to be

um considered how you install it so

attention part of the tree are you reading that right now

I I was played uh reading the question yeah yeah Levi said that not a question just

input right installation crew and and or the retailer should be explaining the cleaning processes and proper

maintenance to avoid uh potential warranty issues right and

commercially that's a little bit easier because we have to provide all that documentation anyways

[Music] or specification that we give them close

out care and maintenance and all that but you know as well as I do you go back and look at it in five years and someone

who did most of the maintenance Crews that take care of those commercial buildings

do not read or care they have their own system and they do something and

I've seen it completely ruined flooring before but but that's a good point that Levi brings

up is of course from a long-term standpoint

keeping the end user informed is important and and telling them how to maintain and clean their their flooring

or take care of their flooring it'll eliminate a lot of problems that that we go back to try to fix and

I mean I mean yeah so install our bulletins I I know that that manufacturers have like

lists of installers and if if something new comes up it's just

an installer bulletin doesn't need any sense to the company because some

companies have employment dollars but something for the installer to

uh engage with when they're updated install methods for different systems or

backings or something like that do that for us he said that every time something changes he's going to send us like a

little postcard and let us know where it is and how to find the link right that's what we're going to do now Jay because

you're our guy right so I said I told you I have homework so no but um when

you brought up the Nora certification Nora actually does that so they changed

the the adhesive and they change um their their stair installation to where

it's not in order to install nor stairs you have

to use the tape method now there's there's no more ASAP that's going on so

they they did send out you know documentation when that stuff changed um that's from the tech side the tech

rep actually emailed me and said hey this is what's changing

email me back let me know you got this question

that's the certification side you're saying yeah okay that's because I'm in

the certified database gotcha so now does that go out to everybody of hey

here's a here's a tweak of what we're what we're doing with our products this is how we're gonna do it from now on

yep okay um and then Patrick Mullins on LinkedIn

said that this is kind of what they're building not kind of that's what they are building floor Cloud for direct

manufacturer updates to installers so I guess that's something to look into as well

they've been on social media I've seen them a few places lately says when you go to select the product you are going

to install and send you a notification of the new change that's cool

yeah more cats Cloud systems pretty awesome and used but I watched their

uh their um

at fdica and then I I've talked to the

guys over there a couple of times offline so yeah it's pretty that's cool so so Jake we have a question for you

flooring manufacturer recommended adhesive

depends there's a lot of different instances of what the subfloor is

what I guess I think what he he's trying to get at is uh

in in your documentation it usually says Shaw

uh adhesive is required right it's yes we required he's for warranties I

understand that that always doesn't happen and people installers use what they're comfortable with and what

they're used to but again just being able to get the questions up front or those moisture tests done in the

Forefront of how can we prohibit something bad from happening

again if people are used to defense laws are used to using pressure sensitive or

uh just a regular wet set adhesive then that's what they're used to we can only

do so much to recommend our own and like you said just from the fourth like from a maintenance side too it's we

can say okay you have to buy these casters and we're trying to protect our floors we need to think of it as more

information and then be more information the better to then decipher an answer but if the if you were looking for

there's an overall One-Stop shop all adhesive I don't have that answer for

you that's a great answer so like um based on conversations that we've had

with we're just going to go across the board it's the installers that they actually

recommend a system that they're going to warranty and that they're going back that they're comfortable with because

that is the system that they are using for all of their testing if you were to venture outside of utilizing the system

that is recommend recommended by the manufacturer then what you're going to have to do is you're gonna have to make sure that there are safety mechanisms in

place and you are not skipping steps because if one thing fails the system is

not a whole they're gonna have to break it into segments and then they will find the failure where it was

um because science doesn't lie so I don't think any sales rep is going to tell you to yeah go ahead and use that

um like there's a question on there like what if it's not available well if it's not a if the manufacturer adhesive is

not available then you're going to have to use the next best right and the next

best most manufacturers are pretty good at giving that all alternative product I've

had that happen with some other you know if it's a hard set acrylic adhesive or

something well what's another manufacturer that makes one that you guys would accept

and specifically I bet I think a lot of us came really aware of this during the

covid problems we had plenty of of Manufacturers that were like no warranty

without our adhesives they couldn't Supply them and then all of a sudden they're like well you can use these three yeah so and then I'm just going to

try to get like an example here because there's a question about that is um Jake if we were in a scenario where

you guys were I would have uh adhesive for your uh terrain too just say we're

doing some 20 mil terrain two and we couldn't get any adhesive for it um what would be your recommendation for

the next next adhesive in in your toolbox that you are allowed by by Shaw contract to

tell us to use if that is the case yeah so so say that we use our typical resilient adhesive and we can't get it

for whatever reason may be then go into different buckets of still

that are under Shaw that are that are approved but then if we can't get that

then we would then go up the ladder for this project specific to get that that I guess stipulation of can we use

this for this project because of X Y and Z so it was it's just a matter of getting with your manufacturer's rep of

we can't get this we go to option b we can't get this we go to option C now

what can we do so it's just that open communication of how can we find a solution that fits this customer so that

so that question um should be run up the ladder call call the rep talk to them about it because it

can change every conversation exactly project to project Circumstance the circumstance right

because uh sometimes you know we're on the fly right because that's what it's a we have this we ran short on adhesive

the supply store is closing in the half hour which is what they have can I use

yes or no yeah and I don't have the capability being boots on the ground on

out running around to make those decisions so I gotta run it up the ladder too in order to get that approval

to then well actually that it's uh we can actually call the the number that's

on the bucket right the tech the tech number exactly customer service or talk to your

manufacturer's rep if you can't get a hold of them talk to customer service eventually you'll get in front of a

manufacturer's rep who then will have to reload it back or at least for in my case I gotta run it up the ladder to my

manager to then go to tech and and so on so and we've been in the situation

before where we've used some adhesive that said that it worked for certain

things and then it didn't because plasticizer migration is uh

a thing right yeah and the man it was actually wasn't a manufacturer it was

the adhesive so the he's adhesive manufacturer came back with oh you're

not supposed to use it on it and it's I pulled up the specs and it says 100 I

can use it on this so can you believe that they made up new labels and redistributed under new labels who would

do that I we won't say but they don't make the product anymore anyways this is

fun no it's California's fault yeah

actually you know what so that's another thing too is our distributor actually had her back on that instance right there and

actually stop carrying that specific product because of because the manufactured it back their failure

they clearly said in the labels that we had but their new labels were missing it and that's what they were trying to throw at us and we're like no dude like

that look at this look what we got right here look at this instead of here here is day inviting I need to actually your

old table and now because this issue you changed it so some installers pay attention Jason yeah hey that's that's

what we need the internet can be your friend and your enemy at the same time

um double-edged sword hey gentlemen

um already believe it or not

so um I want to thank you Jake for coming on I know some of the stuff we weren't

always you know it's not always looking for the exact answer from you just the insights and and thought processes on

you know I think it's important for manufacturers and the installation Community to have some some uh

some ways to share information and I also go into my very first point

just some level of factory training uh I do like the installer bulletin I

know or cloud has had uh jumped in and said you know that they're they're working on some stuff I know that you

know go career long term I'm not sure when this feature uh is out we will have

installed bulletin eventually where manufacturers just go on and load up uh new information on their

uh installation of a certain product and that'll go out to the entire go career

installer Network um and it'll show as red or not red or

uh you know opened or not opened and kind of get that feedback on

knowing that the installers are getting it rating it and understanding it um

and all those would also be great to have like a tech rep behind it that that

could answer any remaining questions so just some ideas

I love it no thank you guys for inviting me on it opened up my eyes as well so again if there's any questions it's good

for us as manufacturers to be reminded of this well as well because we are so in product where we gotta look at it on

the back end as well of how can we get something down that's going to stay down and perform well to make everybody look

good yeah and then there's our ultimate goal as installers too is we've come across some pretty good

product but we've come across a lot worse installs than bad products yeah right Kelly even puts on here she's when

we were talking about you know the manufacturers and backing up installers she said that uh the manufacturers

backup design organizations all the time why not start doing it for installers

since we're kind of that that backbone right it's uh foreign

to learn about the product that we're putting down and and stuff like that that's uh that's really what we need to

do oh I just real quick if I can just add I I

challenge just everybody to put their manufacture this opened up my eyes a lot

so if you're if you have a specific manufacturer that you love working with or just open up their eyes to so that

they can start that conversation where again it's not it's not it's not going to do anything but benefit us all in the

long run I love it I love it thanks for that comment that's that's important yeah push your sales reps and your Tech

reps to get you the information and and also push you if you've caught any nuggets off this uh off the Huddle

podcast here use them to to kind of uh like Jake said push your sales rep to

maybe make some meaningful change they they can push it up the mountain uh as

Jake was talking about earlier and and get it up to higher levels and I think we all want a better installation a

better installation community and you know at the end of the day deliver great

projects for our end users so yeah all right gentlemen well hey thanks Jake

for joining us again and appreciate it yeah thank you guys appreciate it yeah

it was awesome and Daniel Jose thanks again for being a good Good Samaritan to

the the flooring installation Community because that a lot of people listen and

uh I think that understanding that some of the challenges that we go through out

in the field and the stuff that the the instances you bring up are fresh and can

help us all be better so I appreciate you guys I appreciate everybody thanks for the audience everybody joining in if

you like the content you have heard today consider liking and subscribing to our

YouTube channel we upload these every every uh every week we upload them to uh

our YouTube channel so go searches out like And subscribe join the podcast get

involved in the community outside that I want to say thank you to everybody once more and

we'll uh see you guys next week all right thanks guys

thank you