The Huddle - Episode 84 - The Unforeseen Pitfalls of Luxury Vinyl

This week the guys are joined by special guest Jason Ramsay who brings a wealth of knowledge in the luxury vinyl world to talk about unforeseen pitfalls, educating customers, and handling customer expectations.

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The Huddle was created by Paul Stuart of Stuart & Associates and Go Carrera, alongside Jose and Daniel Gonzalez from Preferred Flooring. Aimed at helping you maintain forward progress in your flooring career, they cover topics from personal and business growth, to installation tips & tricks and everything in-between.

Want to be a guest on The Huddle? Email ashlynn@gocarrera.com today!

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GET TRAINED! Find a list of training dates here: https://gocarrera.com/resources/training/
https://www.preferredflooringmi.com
https://www.stuartandassociates.com

there we go technical difficulty there what's up huddle crew Welcome to our

podcast this week we got some special guests with us uh Jason Ramsey from

California I believe and with me as always Mr Jose and Daniel Daniel

Gonzalez out of Grand Rapids Michigan yo yo guys are uh you feeling better Daniel

you back in the feeling way better nice so we just got back from Ty and um this

is our second week back actually and Daniel came back with the Old Co but until the last podcast he was

hacking and coughing the whole time yeah it was it was not good but I'm all better now we can't get that through the

microphone and stuff can we we can't I think that's how I got it no put on a

Mas Jason that would be fun working on that right now ai's trying to figure out for that so Jason's um a flooring installer

uh runs a subcontracting company out of uh out of California and I want your

quick take Jason on who you are kind of what what Niche you've fallen into in

flooring and then uh a little you know a little bit about your background but then uh you know on our topic the

pitfalls of uh luxury vinyl you know give us the high Lev View and then we'll

dig in so tell us a little bit about yourself yeah sounds good so tylon floring contractor out here in a

beautiful Orange County California land of avocado toast and yoga pants right

yeah baby that's right but I started 993 as a carpet installer evolved uh uh went

through a lot of trial and errors ups and downs uh became a Thailand foreign contractor out here uh eventually got my

moisture testing uh for slabs certification and then uh evolved into a

uh flooring inspector and uh out here run about five employees and um just

dealing with the everyday in and out of this business it's amazing right yeah

yeah we talk a lot about the um the fun the the the complications the pitfalls

of the industry itself and so you know and how some times we can be Our Own

Worst Enemy um so you mentioned um a

couple things as we were kind of getting to know each other before the podcast started uh one of them being that uh let

me mention two of them but one of them being that you had a light bulb or a

moment of like hey I want to know more about this and you really started digging into training and and getting

certified and things like that what can you tell us a little a little bit about that we're really big on certifications

and training and improving yourself yeah and I agree so I was

reading the manufacturers uh instructions one day and I was going through all of it and I was just kind of

Blown Away at all the basically booby traps was what I called it for for us

for us installers out there I felt like it was just unbelievable the things that we had to conform to in order to really

have that manufacturers warranty and also provide that to the customer so reading that I just was like

I I was almost scared and and so that started my my journey into and really an

obsession I mean NCT and ARX and I just if there was something out there that I

could take I mean and a lot of it was during covid as well so I was taking lots of webinars and stuff but then if

there was a a class somewhere that I could go and I could take something I mean I was doing it I was really investing in in me um and then I started

to to put my my employees through the uh through through the same

things gotcha yeah that was the second thing was you have employee installers

uh California with the ab5 rules uh you know

really doubl down in a lot of ways and make it really tough if not impossible

for this 1099 thing you have to be a legitimate um uh a legitimate company to you know

perform the Labor uh the way that you do um so I thought that was interesting one

of the things we promote big here as well is that Subs uh I own a commercial

floor covering company in in witto Kansas so we do we we have about SE 70

to 80 subcontractors that we run and we have about 12 to 13 employee in house uh

benefited you know uh health insurance kind of W2s W2s employee installer

sometimes I go really deep in that to make sure drives home with people but

um you know one of the things that we promote big time is if you're a sub you

need to be hiring employees and not trying to$ 1099 out your labor at that

point uh you know these guys should be on your payroll uh what whatever benefits package you can afford to give

them uh should be given to them and they but they should be on your on your as a

W2 um it sounds like that's pretty much a must in

California yeah that's that's right there's really no way around it and it doesn't really even matter your structure if you can structure LLC as

cor DBA whatever and for instance if I hire somebody that does flooring

uh they are W2 you know there's this thing called this ABC rule IRS has it

California state has it and to try to classify somebody as a 1099 it's it's

it's it's virtually impossible so now if they're a plumber right we can do that right um painter something yeah because

it it boils down especially in California to is it work that you could do or that you performed on your in your

daily business and if so then you cannot sub that portion out that should be done

I'm house now that doesn't mean that flooring yeah it doesn't mean that flooring contractors can't sub to you it

just means that then your employees or your your workers must be W2 uh

employees yeah and the regulation with that really comes down to um it's funny

it's it's insurance companies right it's workers comp companies when they're doing the audits

um and that's because you know the the the State Franchise Board or the tax the

tax board or the Ed employee Development Department they're not throwing darts in just going around and auditing people

the way they find out is is if somebody reports um reports that business but um

it's really the workers comp and they're making all the money right on the premiums and and yeah that's what they

want right yeah yeah really that's exactly what it is and it seems like out of all the agencies and all the

bureaucracy all the things that I have to all the Hoops have to jump through it's the insurance company that I have to really comply with which yeah they're

the ones that going to give you your yearly audit and all that good stuff yeah yeah even though where pay go so it

you know it's pay as as you go the workers comp and they see all that they still audit you know yeah and look for

it but yeah so that's that's how it is out here and there's still a lot of businesses I see them all the time that

are skirting that system and you know I can go onto the contractor State License Board and I can look at their license

that license on there tells us so much more information and it tells us if they have workers's comp or not so let's say

I'm doing an inspection and I do a deep dive on the company and I'm like look you guys you guys you know Four Guys

Five Guys here doing this job or whatnot and you're exemp from workers comp so I

mean I I'm not the workers comp police but my point is you know there's a lot

of people not playing by the rules yeah mind your pce Nationwide right that's not just California yeah but it looks

like California has a better handle on it than the rest of the US does you just you just taught me that insurance

companies have way more pool than they think they do for that they know well they don't they don't sponsor all the go

every golf tournament in the world because they're not making money that you know yeah the the

California what they did with their ab5 is really make it just that much more

comp uh complicated to then sub out to you know the a third tier sub first tier

is typically uh first and second tier so the general Subs to me and I can sub

mine as long as they have their cois the Certificate of Insurance

and then they name you and they can do all that then good when you come to that audit yeah it's just a matter of making

sure that you are um you know that a you have all that but you know that's where

it kind of gets rid of the third fourth fifth tier where everybody's exempt on a job from work comp and nobody and it

opens up that that risk factor so well that's a quick lesson everybody on

insurance now on to flooring um yeah could we could have been uh you know a

whole topic on that yeah yeah one of the things we're gonna have to talk about that one one time just the whole episode

yeah I'm gon say one thing he mentioned earlier was all the the complicated stuff about the industry and and uh

that's one of them but um yeah so you got into flooring you probably got

snagged like the rest of us and stayed in uh Jose and Daniel both have the same

same kind of you get sucked in man I mean that's right flinging

it sucks you in and it doesn't let you out doesn't let you out so today

uh sorry go ahead Jason oh I was just gonna say you know it when it's good

it's good but when it's bad it can be bad amen well and kudos to you for

getting uh inspector uh certification as well because that's one of the things

that where we think um you know I I personally haven't done it and I think

that it would be a good thing not only only for myself but for you know installers out there to know what the

inspectors are going to be looking for uh we kind of talked about that in previous episodes as well but um who

knows on that yeah it strengthens your whole business because you're able to see the other side of it and you're able

to then um curtail any of those things that you may be doing in your business

right that's really what I did that why I started that for and then it turn it just blossomed in this whole other world

and this whole other thing but but that's that's why I did that because you

think you know stuff as it installer and you think you can run your top cutter you think you can do your Tri you think you can do all this stuff the reality is

it's it's it's it's it's mind uh mindblowing and I suggest any of you guys to to to pursue that at least that

better use that r one that I got yeah yeah yeah there's a lot of good

ones out there NC CT has one and there's a few there's a few other ones um some could be a little scammy and stuff but I

highly recommend the NCT is one that uh I believe you know both of these guys

what's up Rand um both of these guys work with the NCT from a uh a training

perspective and curriculum and all that kind of stuff so great organization there with sunny and Paul that's right

yeah so the unforeseen pitfalls a luxury vinyl um yes you know what good point

there Daniel I want to uh bring up we're going to be at the summit coming up in uh Dalton Georgia two weeks right in a

couple of weeks so uh yeah yeah so if you can make it out to Dalton and um

it's at the Dalton Convention Center in afct is putting that on in uh in unison

with unite which is uh Robert Varden I believe and and his group and uh it's a

great opportunity for installers come out meet other other Crews work on best

practices one of the things I I I plead with our installer uh audience for is

the a lot of companies we go and we meet with other companies at fuse Alliance or

starnet or uh FC and what we're there for is to absorb best practic from other

companies and then see if we can go back to our office and apply those that's what these things are for for the

installers to go get to know other installers find out best practices you

just learned from Jason and what we've talked about multiple times is getting your

inspector's license a lot of times it's a partial online partial in person there's multiple different ways you can

go about it but uh being trained all these things we promote on the Huddle

here you know getting out and meeting other installers let's stop this siloing each other away

and get out meet each other understand what Jason's doing great in um in

California what Jose and and Daniel are doing great in Michigan what we may be doing right down here in Witchita what

other people are doing right in South Carolina and then try to take those business best practices back in your

installation business so that the come come is at the summit will be exhibiting there go Carrera will and uh come see us

so on to the topic which is uh you know probably the isn't it didn't they say

Daniel and Jose did you guys catch on the LA at Ty it's it's still the fastest

growing uh they thought L lvt would uh cool off and it's not yeah not everyone

is almost going like there's a lot of talk with the sales guys about going back to laminate but vinyl is not going

anywhere anytime soon because I mean you were at the show the amount of people

there that were exhibiting vinyl was ridiculous yes I think it's industry

like it residential or commercial so in the commercial world I don't see any type of resilient going anywhere anytime

soon um no you're right yeah so EAS to

maintain yeah no wax you know there there's a lot of great benefits but

today's topic is about pitfalls so what kind of pitfalls are we seeing do we

know about in the residential let's kick it off in the residential World a lot of

that's going to be your spc's your your solid cores made of different things what kind of things have you guys ran

across that we would be valuable to the audience to understand that like watch

out for this drop lock drop lock

I mean we can talk to the we can ask the inspector but I'm pretty sure drop Lock's a big deal you know before he

gives a before he gives his two sense into that because I know it's gonna be a lot smarter than mine um you know a lot

of is we're having it might not even be the product right the majority of the issues is the installer error of it it's

just that the margin for error is just so slim on that drop loock that it's got

to be absolutely perfect and you know you can't have someone who's used to getting paid by the square foot going in

there try to bang out a job like they're doing a regular laminate project walk away everything looks good you know you

get a phone call a week later and everything's thumbnailing um because it wasn't laid and set in perfect before

they either pounded it down too hard or pressed it or rolled it however they want to engage that Locking System so so

what's the problem guys what what what what are the problems we are seeing like

what what are the symptoms of the the issue of the install

so um and you guys are right about the the drop lock there's angle lock there's a lot of different locking mechanisms

and I think sometimes guys don't understand they they blanket approach these products and what does that comes

back to right we're not reading we're not reading the instructions I mean you got QR codes they're on YouTube they're

in Spanish they're in English they're in French in Italian I see so there's really no excuse to understand what what

locking mechanism is on the product that you're installing but guys just don't and then there's no communication from

the head installer for and owner whatever but let's rewind that let's let's let's let's talk about let's talk

about the first so this this stuff is marketed so well right your your

brother's doing it the designer the sister the cousin it's everywhere you're on Facebook it's all over the place everybody's doing it's the best thing

since sliced bread but that and then you go into these showrooms right these

people go to these showrooms they're looking at almond and butter wheat and oh this one looks great with my my my

paint and decor or whatnot but the reality what what's really needs to be

discussed is who's installing it how they're installing it are they qualified

or certified um but sales people don't want to touch upon that

why well they there there's multiple reasons why just my uh opinion here but one of

them being that the the percentage of installers that are certified or um have

taken some level of training has fallen off a cliff in the last 10 15 years so

it's a shortage of these certified and highly trained installers uh first off

and secondly it's like I did a talk at at Ty about this

like they're they're scared to promote their installer as uh for fear of losing

out or getting gone around uh I noticed that a bit at the show uh I promote like

sell yourself sell your company based on the quality of your installer group and

so anyway that's my two cents on that so a lot of these showrooms um they're they

don't have in-house installation okay so once they make a sale um that

customer done on own right and and then then everything falls into whose lab the

installers lab right um and so this is where we're

seeing the big problem so salese they may not necessarily be taking product knowledge classes they may have worked

at a grocery store a month before and now they're in this environment where they're selling floors and they really

don't know about all the products and how it has to be installed so what so the biggest the biggest Pitfall that I

see is is is and as you guys probably know is it's going to be floor

prep I think we've had about different comments already I mean just this one

right here from Chad prepping the homeowner for what true prepping is right you know Jimmy saying that

flatness is the big issue and then Rin was just like floor prep like right off the bat and that's that's one of the big

issues so sales people don't want to touch upon that right either they don't even know they don't care or they don't

want to scare that person off right I think they're trained to avoid that

conversation all together because could essentially scare a client away could be a lot of them don't know the difference

between an SBC lvp well they don't know Lam they don't know what they're even sound they don't even know like you said

this one looks good in my house so that's the one that I want yeah butter toast this is gonna be

great but the reality is the reality is these products they need to be almost

count you need countertop flatness so you know we go back to the 316 and 10 we

all we all understand that but you think homeowners they can't process this asmf

710 stuff and manufacturers guidelines and 316 and 10 they don't even know an inch to millim they don't know they

don't know just to make it look nice but then what happens is 12 16 18 14 22 months later when there's deflection

right and you've got creased joints and they're starting to they're starting to have ledging and then they're starting

to break and come up they're hitting their toe socks it's a whole thing it just it's downhill from there right all

because of the guy that came in at 15,000 who included um grinding priming

and self-leveling everything to the other guy that comes in who doesn't have that and he's just gonna try and do a spot patch or something doesn't even

come in with a 10 foot level or scet um and it's gonna do the job for 8,000 so

you got x amount versus this amount and most customers are price driven I get it I get it but this is why we have to try

to educate people and this is my mission is to try to educate homeowners they still don't want to see so when I go

into a lot of these inspections and and it's it's it's totally ruined people their their eyes are wide open they're

listening they want to learn right but hindsight's 2020 so when I go in and I do an

estimate I'm 15,000 the other person's 8,000 well that's a big difference and

there's a reason right the reason is these products need to be super flat the

slus are expensive primers are expensive getting it right is expensive having your gauge rakes and Spike rollers and

getting everything done right there's so much more to it than just mixing up some web creete 95 and throwing that down and

thinking you're just gonna patch your way through this job no you're gonna you can make it worse because what you

thought was a high spot could actually be a low spot so you're grinding it and you're making a bigger low spot you're

making it worse and you don't have the right um tools to tell you what's really

going on with that substrate or subfloor so getting it flat is the number

one issue that I'm seeing um in this industry with these products now

laminates for the most part and then wood floors we still need that flatness right we still need that 316 some we can

get you know an e here and there but with the laminates but we still need that flatness so it really doesn't matter what product you're putting down

this notion that this luxury Vinyl Products are so inexpensive and they're waterproof and all this stuff and you

don't need to couldn't be couldn't be farther from the truth right yeah the waterproof thing drives me nuts

but I I got it's been raining here for 48 hours all my extra samples I'm gonna

build a wrath my man with this LBP we're gonna see how water yeah the the whole waterproof uh

you mentioned earlier one of the the bait and switches is uh about

waterproofing being waterproof for example is just how well they Market

this stuff it is it is mind-blowing how good of a job they've done at marketing

this waterproof scenario Well yeah if you spill a cup of water in a well-installed uh you know floor in the

middle away from the edges that are likely not silic ConEd or anything like

that okay it could be waterproof in that zone uh but if you're on slab it does

nothing for high for moisture mitigation or moisture coming up from the bottom

and it also does nothing if you're going to flood a room and it goes around to the edges it it's like yeah yeah it's

waterproof in a a cup size like th you know this big of a square foot in the

middle of the of a well-installed floor uh but there's a lot of pitfalls with that so anyway yeah there's an as

there's an ASM standard um for the product and basically I think it starts at they have to be uh up to 24 hours and

then they measure the the the swelling of the XP pad right the back the the

your underlayment pad that's attached and Andor the product so I think it's like two to three% or 5 percent so that

there is a standard there that they can technically say that and they have to has to be done um has to within 24 you

have to pass 24 hours and then right and we keep on talking about ASM standards

right and I think that's one of the misconceptions is that just since we're installers we automatically should know

all these things but there's plenty of installers that don't and I think that's one of the big hiccups is you have

professional installers doing it but they may not be as professional as you think right just because you do it every

day doesn't mean that you're doing it right and why you're doing it that way

yeah and and STM you know they have these things outlined like you mentioned f710 earlier and there's probably guys

listening right now or ladies that don't know what f710 is so yeah if you don't definitely go look it up I mean it's a

document that you have to pay for but we should probably do a podcast on

ASM f710 100% yeah I'm on that committee uh fo6 is the Comm we just joined we

just joined as well oh co good good good for you guys they raised the price too so fun fun with that right well we

joined like two months ago maybe oh okay so well anyways it's it's

that's great gives you voting rights and there's there's so much knowledge out there understanding why you're doing

things right why why are we getting these this substrate into you know 316 from 10 why are we putting Vapor

retarders vapor barriers and we can have a discussion on that someday too if you want the difference of vapor retarders

and barriers us that terminology so so some of the I just

want to bring up something some of the uh items that we're talking about the

pitfalls really that they display themselves in what you were talking

about earlier we got some deflection uh comments and some of the comments but

the um you know delamination the things that happen because the sock Grabbers and the toe

Cutters and the things of the of this that is the the symptom from not

properly preparing not proper installation proper acclamation proper storage and

acclamation and that's right St and acclamation too different correct what

what are you talking about they don't it doesn't need acclamation it says right on the box it doesn't need acclamation ready for I got a good story

for you from one I did last week on that one it's it's but yeah all those people who have uh their

commercial material stored outside in a conx in 75 degree weather it's like 120

in there you're really compromising that material so and probably one of the difficult most difficult things to do

because every job is unique in and of itself and the challenges and uh you know put areas to put the material and

time constraints and on and on and on and trying to conform to everything it's it's it's

nearly impossible they make it so possible for the installers as you guys know and I know you guys have climate

controlled storage places which is fantastic and you're able to document and show all that stuff I me that's that's that's that's what you got to do

because it's just not practical to be able to on some of the yeah the best we can do is uh we have an acclamation Zone

and we try to get it as close as possible because frankly um just as you were mentioning there's just there's

jobsite access issues and I'm in commercial so in that world there's jobsite access issues storage issues

ontime deliveries written into your contract where it's like ontime delivery but it's got to acclimate for 24 or 48

Hours well sorry like this has to happen um

yeah and and there's all these schedule constraints and all those stuff and and

preferred does a lot of commercial um as well but uh they also do some

residential I only do commercial except for once in a great while some friends or Architects uh their houses will do

but we don't do retail residential but um anyway long story short it's all

those constraints that Force us into these boxes of trying to make a product work and sometimes pushing the limits of

what acclamation means yeah that's that's right I just inspected one where they did it in

August it was schools and it was lvp and it's all the products outside is 9

degrees right you could imagine go and install it turn on the AC's and everything guess what

happens yeah man G Gap right so

conditions and and all that stuff uh comes into play as well so Jason when I

went to the NCT I went to one of the seminars I mean this was probably 2018 or something uh Brent fik from Ry

actually had a presentation on just dimensional stability and how much the

pl can actually grow and then you do that over you know there some of these companies are saying that there's no

limit to you don't you don't need any transitions anywhere there's no limit anymore right but the science behind how

much it can grow and how much is actually acceptable is ridiculous like

man how can it grow that much and I mean still be considered stable and they are

yeah that's that that's where knowing all this stuff comes into play right

yeah they have and they have memory so there's like something called like an analing process so when it's when they're made they're heat they're heated

at a certain temperature and size and so they go back to that size right and so this was this one I measured I I did my

own my own redneck test and I I demonstrated how just in my truck it GW

this product was like 35 and 15 16 it was like a nominal 36 but just in my

truck for 30 minutes it grew to 36 inches and then I took it and put it into a project that was on on the

concrete substr and it went back down to 35 and 1516 so in a matter of a few minutes right so just by that and and

when I inspected these schools four different schools every plank was 35 and

156 every flank and there was the everything was gapped um and the gaps are like 30 a 30 second in the 16th but

regardless every plank every plank I mean i measur r I measured so many freaking planks I got I'm down with it

enough you guys are G to get the point so but anyway so with that it's definitely so important to acclimate now

I'll go do I'll measure residentials where the people have the attic stock sitting outside for two years in all

kinds of weather and they're perfect okay so you know there there you go

right um but so to to turn back so the first thing that that the first Pitfall

is that flatness and the importance of um really educating that buyer that that

consumer um how how important it is to to really get that right and to spend the money on that everything is prep you

prep your walls you go to paint your car you clean your dishes you prep right you're not just throwing dirty dishes

into the dishwasher you're going to clean them up you're gonna prep those things so Prep Prep Prep and why why in

all all these other Industries everything else prep is is okay but in the flooring industry people don't want

to pay prep and that's what it comes down to for some single reason um people don't want to pay for prep and

and I see it all the time guys are always telling me they don't want to pay Jason they don't want to pay well you

know why'd you do the job then you know I mean that's another another thing right guys are still doing the projects

right and they know better and so um but so prep is is what I find right now with

these products in residentials the number one thing and then I would say second um right now would be uh

uh some type of moisture management system one way or the other right um and

starting by reading those manufacturers guidelines are going to give most installers the the the direction of

where to go with that Kendall Kendall you know had a

comment up here saying that there was an entire upper level that they had to replace and the manufacturer didn't

require a a vapor barer barrier underneath it and then after this failure they they retract and said all

right we're going to change the spec and then now they require it but the fact of the matter is is that it's just like

everything else right it's almost it's almost like a trial and error if they don't catch it at the factory they're

going to catch it in the field somewhere and at least this this manufacturer owned up and said yep it's our fault

Let's uh let's figure this out and change our actual spec yeah I I want to bring something up

so we we have the staller side um you know floor prep making sure we

properly um communicate to the end user whoever that may be the reasons why we

need to do floor prep and if you can use ASM standards or the manufacturer's

recommendations in your favor that's what I always do I'm like I would love

to just come in and blow and go and knock this thing out but you have you know quarter inch dips all the way down

your hallway your lvt is going to look like hammered poop when it's completed a

B I can't control gaap or anything on the install as it's going because when

it goes down it takes more room and you you you have issues uh particularly if

it's like a VCT or something uh let alone LBT but the point uh I was getting

to is we also have some Manufacturing things we need to talk about like regions of manufacturing and things of

this that we need to be cognizant of as installers and where we know that there

are clear regions of the world where product come from that will give you a

higher likelihood of issue um do you guys why is that why is it the region do

you think or it's mainly the raw materials that they use to make their back that's right it's where they Source

it's where they source the uh the uh the chemicals and the products from because they could be sourcing from three two

three four different places and and and Manufacturing it in in one region and we

don't know what goes in that secret sauce per se right we don't know we can't police all that you just don't

know how the quality of those things so yeah right and that's where the manufacturers come in right because they

they should be testing every batch that comes in to make sure that it's supposed to be exactly what they need one of my

favorite manufacturers which I'm not going to mention manufacturers names but one of my favorite manufacturers does a

really good job of visiting the actual plants that's right talking with the

actual people on the on the floor making the product um and does a really good

job of vetting out and making sure that the plant is producing something he can

stand his brand can stand behind absolutely and I think that's really important is to make sure you're dealing

with manufacturers who care enough about their product that they they know where

it's sourced they understand where the raw materials are coming from this is the complication of being an installer I

I wish it wasn't this way either guys I wish we didn't have to be chemists concrete experts you know raw material

experts and uh you know understand how the products actually made to put it doesn't change the fact that we need to

be just because we don't think it should be that way it doesn't change the fact that that's how it is right now that's

the only way you can mitigate your risk yeah and like Chad said right here I mean we we talk about it all the time

you know reading the bucket of adhesive and that's pretty much what he's saying make sure you're reading it it doesn't

matter if you've installed it a thousand times on that next one it could the instructions could have changed I have

aile situation with this with this exact thing where the backing system changed

the installation instructions changed a lot changed and all of a sudden we had

2,000 yards that had to be replaced and it was not a cheap thing the manufacturer did come to the table on it

but it was it was a major problem and so you I have another instance where we

were putting an underlayment under lvt and one the the instructions in the

package this is complicated a little bit um puts us at another disadvantage but

the instructions in the package uh change so I I also encourage you to

check the online stuff because that's what we did verified with the

manufacturer which way it was uh to be uh done and when they had an issue and

the GC tried to point and say well the install instructions say film down and

we were like well that's outdated they can't recall 20,000 rolls or 200,000

rolls and change this piece of paper they keep their online stuff up to date

that's right that's another point to to make sure as an installer or you're kind of think read the packaging but also I

encourage everybody Google is your friend go find the install instructions

online and just double check that's right those are those are always up to

date yeah that that saved our rear end on this project literally the fact that

we installed it correctly on the most updated installation instructions and not the

way that the pamphlet in the material said to do it right and I I think that's one of the the the only downside I can

see of all the networking and stuff that we do is that you become known by some

of these people right because I've called some of these Tech reps and then they're like oh I trust you it's like I

need an answer like come on now yeah yeah yeah yeah what do you what do you think I think I want to be

covered we had one where the primer said um wait four hours before stalling the

Florida but online it says uh wait four hours or uh ambiant conditions pend

depending or something like that right so I'm not in Delaware or New York or

Florida right Southern California pretty nice weather and so it was gold after

two hours we were good we were good to go uh I had my hydrometer I tested it everything was fine and she had made a

big thing because the bucket said four hours well these the bucka was like 11 months old they updated or such like

said and that was that that saved me yeah so knowing knowing those things

um it doesn't take a lot of time take just take a few minutes of your time and

verify that your install instructions are correct it could save you and then you know kind of understanding I think

stores need to be cognizant of this more so than the installers of where where

yes are that and what the products are that they're selling so I tell stores

listen when when they come to pick the material up from your from your shop or whatever print it out or whoever's

buying it print out the installation instructions Supply it on the invoice on

an email whatever give it to the guys picking it up because typically guys are picking up the day of install they're

not acclimating right but regardless whenever they pick it up hand them that so they have it and at least you've done

that right you've at least given them the opportunity to read those installation and that'll really um help

with claims yeah hopefully yeah it's one of the things we push at go Carrera a lot is the the dynamic work order part

of that is you can add it at any point and make sure that that's brought to their attention so that the installer

knows the most updated installation instructions and and giving that to the in have the installer needs to know days

if not more time what they're working with and be able to read that stuff

another problem is there's so many so many things coming at the installer that they have to deal with and think about

you can't just do the job anymore you have 82 things going on that you try to

micromanage all of that and it can be difficult and then the installers expected to do all these things it's

easy to sit back and just say oh you didn't do this you didn't read this look it says over here 1116 by 1116 by 1116

you use 116 by 1116 by 316 or whatever the heck right I mean it can be so much

it's easy for somebody that's not in that world really that's down in there getting their hands dirty doing it to

sit back get her done get her done get her done get her done get her done got that pressure lines timelines so many

armchair quarterbacks out there and all these technical dudes and people I get it but you know what put yourself in

these guys shoes and women's shoes it's not easy they have a lot to think about and it's all in their lap if people make

the sale whatever ever it is that chain down everything falls into that Asar to

get 82 things right you know it just I think it's important yeah and I

think that's one of the good things like um that's going on right now because you see a lot of the text that are coming in

from the installation world and um some of these pris yeah some of these

certifications that I go to some of the reps are like all right we're talking about this right now but in reality we

all know that job sites aren't going to be ran like this and they actually go through different things like if the job

site was like this this is what I do and stuff like that so at least we have that

that we can kind of look forward to if if Keep On trending that way so one

thing we're finding as well with these residential floating products these spcs lbps and on on we see that a lot of the

problems are about that six millimeter and below so if you're up over that six millimeter product you know they have

that dimensional layer to it that stability layer that that they're being made with in order to make a a less

expensive product or cheaper you omit that layer right and so now you're down

with a product that's five 5.5 millimeters and this is where I see a lot of failures on a lot of with with

products right from temperatures you know sunlight and and be clear this is

in residential on your click flooring uh yeah that's that's that's exactly right

not I'm not talking about commercial I mean even commercially we we're seeing more and more even on the specs where

they have click flooring going in commercial spaces which yeah we try to lead them away from that right away

absolutely smartest thing you can do um you just you know we never lost money on a job we didn't do yeah dang I've heard

that somewhere right that's really what it comes down to you know

i000 square foot project they floated the commercial thing are you kidding me

so yeah and Rollin says you know they they sell it as it's so easy to install

anyone can do it and that's just when we talk about a Geo

commercial when we talk about floor prep right it's it's just I mean maybe the

the product could be that easy to install but we always talk about your base where are you starting from you're

starting from that prep right if you don't do that prep right you're already putting yourself far behind where you

need to be and this goes on this is for residential and Commercial that's right

are advertising everything as the DIY which kind of takes away from our credibility um as as professional

installers well it doesn't help that the box stores are are are saying free install we talked about that a lot you

know this free installation gimmick doesn't help our cause at all it devalues what the installer does and um

I don't look no one's actually believes it but somehow

it does work for B someone believes it someone believes it I can't I can't

hardly believe they actually think the GU there working for free like he's it's built into the price uh but at the end

of the day the the the uh Optics of it is not good for our industry in my

opinion but um I don't want any of the box stores to put a head out on me or anything just uh wish that they would

maybe approach it a little bit different technically we'd love their marketing department to come on here and tell us

why they do it right yeah yeah come on uh I won't name

any so I I think we spent like over a half hour on just the residential aspect

so commercially um I think over the years one of the the biggest things that

we've seen is the adhesive that goes underneath and we actually switched from

pressure sensitive to um essentially semi wet setting everything to get that

actual Bond going because you talk we talked about raw materials and everything that goes into the product

and then you just see plasticizer migration right and evaporation and and

these things they're they're going to shrink eventually so what what can you do to mitigate that it's that's what we

found our solution was was as soon as we started doing this it was less complaints we go to these jobs years

later everything's still together so I mean it's kind of um cheap insurance

right you're still using the same kind of the same products you're just using them in a in a slightly different

way yeah yeah I think I think that's a good point I also think that you know

concrete you know commercial brings in just mostly concrete and brings in

moisture testing and understanding the moisture parameters and understanding that even the best moisture test can be

off by about three two to three% in One Direction or the other when you're pushing these limits uh having having

some security on your your either recommendation of a full mitigation

system or a true wet set adhesive uh you know like a modified

siling kind of adhesive or at the very least educating the people that this is

the parameter remember this could be off 2 to 3% all of them say that all of the

uh the moisture testing so moisture comes into a big in a big way in

commercial uh because we don't have crawl spaces and stuff a lot of the slabs are slab on grade who knows if

it's a 50-year-old slab if there's any any there's likely even if it did have a

uh vapor barrier under the slab it's very likely that it's completely degraded to nothing and so you have to

take measures to protect both you and your client it's your client that's going to have to deal with this or

should get a 10 to 15E floor and so you

have that responsibility to uh you know and I'm talking more from the company salese perspective uh to make sure that

you're you're educating the client in a way that they understand that hey we

we're going to do moisture test if it's pushing the limit at all we're gonna we're going to need to do something about it that's that's right and I think

we we have to really emphasize time of install um moisture testing and what

does that mean right so you can you can do a calcium chloride or you can do a 2170 and C2 days before weeks whatever

that's just at that time gives you just yes a little snapshot like taking blood pressure on somebody right that doesn't

tell you everything it just tells you that aspect RH in the slab in that spot

RH in that spot right um so what we're finding is is a bigger

issue is going to be atmospheric conditions right your your your um your

dupoint and your ionic dupoint and what does that mean right so I know they're big words but let's simplify it so the

time of install you want to test that top gradient layer right of the slab

right you want to test that moisture content because that's what we're adhering to and that's most important we want

that Bond there so at time of install it's very important to put whatever uh

uh meter that you're using down and if that meter doesn't have a hygrometer built in you want to have that

hygrometer so it's going to tell you your ambian conditions specifically that dupoint and then you want to have that

infrared uh thermometer and you want to test the surface temperature right of the substrate to see are we within that

10 degrees Fahrenheit are we above that right you want your surface temperature 10 degrees above uh Fahrenheit above the

due point so if your dueo 60 you want that surface temperature to at least be

70 okay then we can really ensure that we're going knowledge yeah this is well these are

going to be new standards that you're going to start seeing soon as ANM but

also you're going to see manufacturers incorporating this more and more we already are in their in their guidelines

especially Coatings adhesive manufacturers things like that um so you'll look at there's there's a few

manufacturers they want five degrees usually it's 5 degrees Celsius 10 degrees Fahrenheit but what's most

important is time of install and documenting that using geotag using photos um because sometimes we can have

a do Point um and you can't always see that moisture on the surface you're

going to have a bond failure so yeah that's awesome that you bring that up I I think um even I just

learned a few little tidbits there so good to know um we're gonna have to

start wrapping things up I want to go around and say uh best approach for an

installer uh both residential and Commercial just best approach as they come in they're doing the lvp job uh you

know 20 seconds best approach thought process wise uh when they step onto a

job site or they accept a job let's let's start with you Jason

okay yeah uh first of all read the manufacturers guidelines uh secondly uh

read the manufacturer's guidelines okay that's where I'm I'm G to start with and

and and really knowing your products getting your for prep proper and then documenting your your

moisture awesome how about you Daniel yeah absolutely I any certification you

go to to they always end with read manufacturers spef unless you know

manufacturer specifications oversee anything that we say here right so

definitely check out the manufacturer's recommendations and just know that uh moisture vapor is always come up up

through the Earth regardless of what you think so moisture is going to be an

issue anywhere you go residentially commercially so always keep that in the back of your mind

Jose sounds uh sounds like that's pretty Universal so I'm just going to shift gears and make a little bit of a joke

here um the maybe we should just change it to the same way that doctors do it

right instead of going through all this rig and row of learning science and and and the science and nature of everything

we should just call it flooring installation practice that way uh can come after us for anything uh that's

really all I have you got get that you gotta get that right you got to get that mou floor in uh Insurance

then yeah I would say uh project conditions uh understand how those after

you've done what the gentlemen have mentioned here uh make sure you understand the environment and and what

you're being asked to do and that not to be fearful of pushing back on whether or

not you should be installing on that given day or in those given conditions um being being firm in your belief of

what you've just read and and having the um courage to tell the superintendent or

the job foreman or whoever is on your deal yeah the the site conditions are not up to par I've just called the

office and let them know but I can't install without the condition not not

and provide warranty without the conditions uh that then it puts it back on the store which in our case we would

write a letter state in all the potent we have a standard letter tells them everything that can happen if they don't

do something about the site conditions and very very rarely do they say go

ahead but then sometimes when they do that letter is prepared and they're signing off um this is not a simple sign

off like you accept that there's no warranty this thing has to be um

articulated in a way that you tell them not only what the potential problems are

yeah but what causes the you have to lay it out in in a total way before that

would hold up in court so if you are going to take that method or take that route uh make sure that I would consult

with an attorney to make sure that you're uh preparing a document correctly so I mean that we are the professionals

right and that's what it what it boils down to if you are that professional know all that's what that's what the

judge would say all right huddle crew Jason thanks for joining us today dude it was a great conversation I hope you

had fun um guys thanks again as usual it was a great podcast with you too and uh

we look forward to having Jason on again in the future let do it pass the word around get some people uh the more

viewership we get the more we can promote uh proper installation techniques so if you like the uh content

even if you don't like Daniel likes to say give us a thumbs down but give us a thumbs up comment tell us what we uh are

doing great tell us what where you uh what what you know topics you'd like us

to cover that kind of thing and and uh if you don't like it come on and talk to

us tell us uh what we're supposed to be talking about yeah yeah good good stuff

guys you guys keep it up man this is what we gotta do one love one love in the community spread and share the

love awesome well thank you guys and we'll see you next Tuesday and and we

are out