In this episode of "Inspector Classes; Why Installers Should Take Them," special guests Paul Pleshek from the National Association of Floor Covering Technicians (https://nafct.com) and Jason Ramsay from California Flooring Service (https://californiaflooringservice.com) discuss the importance of training and certification for flooring installers. Attending inspector classes equips professionals with advanced skills and industry insights, enhancing installation quality and customer satisfaction. Certification also boosts credibility, opening doors to new opportunities and allowing installers to command higher rates. Join us to learn how these educational advancements can elevate your flooring business.

The Huddle was created by Paul Stuart of Stuart & Associates and Go Carrera, alongside Jose and Daniel Gonzalez from Preferred Flooring. Aimed at helping you maintain forward progress in your flooring career, they cover topics from personal and business growth, to installation tips & tricks and everything in-between.

Want to be a guest on The Huddle? Email thehuddleforwardprogress@gmail.com today!

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https://www.preferredflooringmi.com
https://www.stuartandassociates.com

what's up team welcome to the Huddle whoa got a little feedback there we're your weekly playbook for not only

strategizing on the game but changing it from mastering the fundamentals of the craft to distinguishing ourselves in the

marketplace we're here to give the installer a voice and ensure you're equipped with everything you need let's

band together and Forge a new Legacy in flooring this is where you belong welcome aboard

everybody and welcome to this week's episode of the huddle with me as always

Mr Daniel and Jose Gonzalez out of grand records Michigan preferred

flooring we got a couple special guests with us today uh we're going to be talking inspector so we thought hey

let's bring on some inspectors so we got Paul pek from the NCT and Jason Ramsey

we've had Jason on before Jason and Paul welcome guys uh should be a funfilled

topic are we um do a little bit of housekeeping here are we all live we are

live all right yay it's working magic things happen when when uh

you get to downgrade from the newest software and then things just magically happen right yeah well you know

technology is fun fellas so I know right we can all relate so today we're going

to be talking about not just inspectors and inspection courses and maybe a path

forward for installers from the aspect of um maybe furthering your career after

installation but more so what type of courses or what type of insights Can We

Gather from current active inspectors that can help us be better installers

and prevent uh some of the pitfalls maybe Identify some of those identify

some of the areas where uh we struggle as installers and inspectors are Keen at

picking up on those uh those parts and pieces and also let's Break Down The Walls the of of uh the image of both

sides so uh I'm going to start with one of the CR the the more contentious

points is do inspectors hate installers or do installers hate inspectors uh I've

I've heard both sides of the story yes installers do hate inspectors I hate all

of you I think the truth is is that most of

them feel like it's a there's battle lines drawn and um being both on the

installer side and then being on the flooring company side where I hire installers and and deal with I've dealt

with inspections I've dealt with uh you know claims and such um many it's it's I think it's

perception so you guys want to like address this part and get it out of

the way at the very beginning what what what's an inspector how does the

inspection take course like how do you guys get hired and then during after that what is your what is your real

goals Jason I would say okay yeah one one of

us either one of you so I think I think so how we're contacted is you know it

could be a manufacturer distributor a homeowner it could be an installer anybody to be honest and I think our job

is to really just inspect and Report okay um stay completely unbiased focus

on on the issues and the facts and just report that as it is you know and

there's this notion out there where I think installers think that inspectors there's no respect for inspectors

because they don't think that well what do you know right you've never touched a trial or had a knife in your hand or a straight edge or know anything

about this stuff and I think that that's that's where they there's not a respect for

inspectors and there's also this talk that oh they're just hired by these people and they're going to do whatever they say well you know there may be some

element of that out there but that couldn't be farther from the truth with with the good inspectors and the ones that have some

Integrity I I think I'd add on to that I I what I usually find is uh good installers don't dislike good inspectors

bad installers dislike all inspectors good installers just like bad inspectors

and I think that's the that's just the fact is that hey we all know there's bad installers there's hack installers

there's hack inspectors there's good PE people at what they do um you end up building a rapport with most of them but

yeah there's people out there that can't stand you because you're constantly looking at their work well yeah guess what well guess why I'm constantly

looking at your work and where do we go with that well you

know I'll let you run the interview I I could run off I said before you started no I I I think you were going in the

right direction I mean how do I I I uh I would love for someone

else to say what what what's your how do we get away from that I

mean I T I tend to think that highly certified and and well- trained installers doing things the right way

don't mind uh their product or their project being inspected as bad as

somebody who maybe is not certified and feels like he's been doing it the right way for a

long time so even before I was certified I wanted to be on every inspection

anyways because it's like if I'm doing something wrong I want to know what I'm doing wrong so okay you're

unicorn well that's the thing though it's it's it's the level of professionalism you bring to the table

and it's it was always well if I am doing something wrong I need to know what I'm doing wrong to be able to fix

it right so that way it doesn't happen again but the reality of the matter was I knew I was doing everything right

because of the processes that we had so if I was going to be doing sheet vinyl

which is pretty much everything that we were always getting inspected well I know I'm going to be doing sheet vinyl

right so I still want to be there and every time we got it inspected they were like yeah there's nothing wrong with

this sheet vinyl I mean they were measuring The Notches they were going through every every single thing and

it's like yeah you you did everything right it's just the the material right or the adhesive application that they

said that was supposed to work in this space it just didn't work or or they get on it too early and

try to blame it on the installers say's feeling so I still wanted to be there

regardless because I just needed to know like is it

something that I did from my perspective I always liked it when the install I

like it when the installer comes out I mean I started inspecting floors in 1995 as you can tell it's

been day it's been a couple here um and you

know it doesn't it should never intimidate or cause issues with the inspector if the installer is present I

mean I've been on jobs where I've inspected the flooring and there were five attorneys there representing every party that could possibly be involved I

mean we don't we've been in different situations where it it and if your

inspector doesn't want an installer there um that's a kind of a red flag to

me right now maybe if the installer wants to be argumentative or if the inspector's being argumentative with the

installer maybe you need to diffuse the situation but there really shouldn't be a time when uh the inspector himself is

excluding people from the proc process it's it's better for us if the installers there you answer more

questions and sometimes give an idea there's often times that you had to do things a certain way and getting that

explanation can help might still be wrong but you know yeah at least a reasonable explanation uh can be

included in the process I did find out um one time that inspectors really don't

like you to be there to ask them a bunch of questions so how do you well I think good inspectors do I mean I've had both

and you guys I'll let the inspectors chime in here but I I've been on the installer side I know you guys have too

but I've been there when the inspector was pleasant and you worked through the

scenario with him and and um I never like get getting combative with the

inspector what the problem we've always had is uh inspector saying things on

site and then their report coming back completely different that's if I have

any negative experience with it um it would be

that so it comes down a lot of it to that commissioning party right and how much you can discuss or talk so a lot of

times we can't really opine I mean we can't are are we can't talk about it right what's going on but what I like to

do I love it when the installers are there and if it's a homeowner and I'll ask that home over my Fe to discuss and

she says yes beautiful and we can have this conversation I can explain everything and it's and it's great

because it's about educating and helping them then they'll have an aha moment but when I can't talk that's when I say you

know I'm sorry I'm not I'm not at Liberty to discuss but just kind of watch what I'm doing and I can kind of

you can kind of figure it out right what I'm focusing on and what I'm doing hopefully that installer can can see

that and and understand what I'm kind of zeroing in on um but eventually they do get their reports as well and I I I I

like to tell them that you know those reports you can use was kind of a blueprint um to figure out kind of what

went wrong I I I just had one last week where big ego installer and I couldn't

talk to him whoa boy he blew up at me and um I just ask well did you document

moisture before you and the Calin chloride and the r

and so so so you uh the site conditions

is that one of the the first um that's probably one of the first questions for

an inspector Right add installation yeah when you go on to I

mean you're you you are concerned with how were the was the moisture testing

done what were the readings what was the ambient you know temperature what's the

humidity those types of things are a big concern for an inspector when they're going into an inspection to figure out

what the conditions site conditions were during the installation was the product

properly acclimated all that kind of stuff is that right that's part of the equation

absolutely there's many more components but that's definitely a start depending on if that's where that that inspector

wants to start with things yeah yeah so I think one of the it's it's a common

question from me uh or for me when we have an inspection is like what was the

moisture readings you have the moisture readings all this stuff and so I think this is a great time to bring up one of

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Prior to deploying your your um cruise is not only huge time saving but in the

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the guys uh reach out to us and we'll get you connected so those sight conditions are important uh I always get

asked did did the product get acclimated what was the temperature and all that stuff so

listen I'll pile on I'll pile on there for you Paul I think that there's that

is a a huge piece of the puzzle for an inspector if you can actually document it that way literally takes away

everything that can be suspect in the beginning of the in well not everything I hate I hate talking in Broad

absolutes yeah but um uh there is no question that

99 out of 100 times when an inspector walks into the job they say we ask them now did you test beforehand and half the

time they say no all right 80% of the time they say no the other 20% of the time they say yes and you say what kind

of meter 95% of the time they say no what's that I said you mean 95% of the

time they say no yeah well yeah yes I it is a vast majority of the time

yes I mean it doesn't help that like with the ad mixtures these days the ad

mixture when he says you do not need to test that might be that might be episode

two right there add mixtures that's it that's the title of the episode just add mixtures

yeah listen if uh the bottom line with anything that has to do with flooring is this for from an inspector standpoint

the manufacturer comes out and says here's a product that we sell we sell this product and if you install it

according to our instructions in the environment that we approve under usage that we approve we will warranty that

product that's what they State when you buy the product that's where you have a warranty is if it is installed in an

environment they approve maintained how they approve installed how they approve they're going to say hey that floor is

going to last a long time x number of years depending on what the product is and the minute that somebody says well I

don't have to install it that way I've been doing this for 30 years and I've never had problem in my entire career

and I can just do it this way because it's worked every time and that floor

fails that warranty is void it doesn't exist anymore that's it right that floor

might perform if you need that warranty now you carry it because you installed it improperly so I got a question on that

um for for everyone out there is there is there any literature or any specific uh type of way to approach it when

you're being asked to install something outside of manufactur specifications that will protect the installer I mean

we live in Michigan right so when we have our Winters there are a lot of times when we have

um you know like one time we had a failure in a restroom that was very that was you know 10 feet away from an exit

door in in the middle of winter in a factory that was operational and that was the employees entrance so every time

they open and close the door we get cold air cold Air's dryer uh then conditioned air you know so it it did uh it did its

magic on on some of uh some of the adhesive right but um we had all the the

right dcks in place like you said um when the inspector got there however the

story that the adhesive was telling didn't reflect our temperature of the slab the ambient temperature and

humidity it didn't reflect any of that and he was having a very hard time taking our word and our documents

uh truthful so what was the answer yeah is

that what what's your at the end of that did you did they find that it was an

installation error or did they um so the beginning that's leaning towards because your

question was is there a way to protect yourself I think that you there are you

can create a document as whether you're an installer or a a flooring company we

have one that we send if we're required to or requested to install outside of

conditions uh but in those in those letters um you know they're

always there I can tell you a few things um make sure that it's super clear and

I've covered this on the podcast before but super clear of the possible problem

and that you and you'll find that they'll get the conditions on right if you send a letter like this uh all the

possible problems and the they um promis to identify harmless for any and all

failures as well as any and all safety issues that result from a failure and

that you are confident that the the chance of failure is high installing

under these conditions and then you make and it's much longer than that but that's you make the architect contractor

and owner sign that document and we've not had one signed

I like the owner part wait get they don't want to go to the owner they don't want the they're scared to go to the

architect or the owner because really the fact that they're behind don't have HVAC on and whatever caused them to be

behind the owner and architect are like well you're the GC you build the building if it's not ready uh what can

we do but it's the only way uh I do know that there's been other documents and I

don't want to spend a ton of time on this but there's other do doents have been created where the GC signs off and

the flooring company took it right in the shorts in the in in law as far as

like they go to court the installer lost that deal because he's the professional he didn't identify clearly identify what

the possible problems were he didn't identify that that uh there could be

safety hazards he didn't ask him to hold them harmless or identify him from any and all potential lawsuits that could uh

come up when you start putting that stuff in your letter the gc's um very

rarely do they move forward with that because it's hard to get all three uh

you know stakeholders to sign a document like that right and I think that's the

go ahead Jason were you gonna say something yeah unfor it all comes back to the installer you're the professional

that's what the judge says why' you do the job I me you're the you're the one you know better and so that's it

and I think that's where the differentiator though is is between being a company that's going to the GC

and doing it and being the installer that's on site that's sub through the company that's doing it because you

there there's multiple channels right where it's all right I as a company I can fight the GC and say no I'm not

going to do it or I can be that company that's like all right I know the GC is not going to budge installer just do it

anyways or if you don't do this I'm not going to give you any more work it's just I i' I've seen both sides of the

the coin there it's a hell of a dichotomy to go through as an installer it's a hell of a position to be put in

it's not good but it happens a lot the

the what we our attempt is to get in writing that they are uh even if it's

just a response to that letter and they don't sign it but a getting proof that

they are try forcing us and threatening us with liquidated damages if we don't move forward those are the types of

things that happen and those stand up very well in court I'm not gonna lie Paul I've used I

mean you hooked us up with that document and I've used it and that was just to do moisture testing period like I'm not

going to install this job if you don't let me moisture test like this is brand new concrete regardless if it was brand new

if it's old concrete I want to do moisture testing think what I'm sorry I think

that what what um we were what we're talking about today and what we're talking about in general with education

is the fact that the more that you can talk at a high level and sound very informed and sound very um um steadfast

in what you're seeing the more that you can convince end users and general

contractors that this is not just something you're not trying to do an hat on sale you're not trying you know you've got instructions here that have

to be met the more that you can refer not just to the installation instructions but the more that you can just off the top of your head refer to

uh ASM standards and and uh installation guidelines and consensus documents

through the industry the more that you can just start rattling these things off when you're trying to talk to a general

contractor the more Authority that you speak with the more that you're GNA sound authentic instead of salesman like

right so it still all comes down to educating your constantly on these

things and working through them not just a class here and there but continually you know and and going to what we had

talked about with this the inspection classes are a big part of that I know that doing the inspector classes May me

better at my job before I got into inspections I know that when people talk about inspections when they have that

level of education and you can start talking with authority about the manufacturing process and the installation process and the maintenance

and and everything that has to do with the flooring from beginning to end when you can talk to a customer and know

you're right because nothing ruins your own um uh the the image they have of you

or your own reputation like telling your customer something and just being dead wrong just flat out wrong I can't tell

you how many times I've gone out on a carpet clean and had a customer say well my carpet cleaner came in and said that it was matted it was uh it was

wearing and it's a cheap carpet and it's garbage and it's wearing and I look at it I'm like well it's not wearing it's

you know it's Madding words matter right it's Madding it's crushing it's cornrowing it's terminology terminology

right you know yeah yeah so being able to go out and and educate yourself and

get this level of knowledge where you talk as an authority on subjects people sense that people sense genuiness people

sense um your your knowledge and being able to go out and do that and I think

that's where as we talked about before that's where I think inspector schools come in important for installers sure

you might want to do it down the road yeah you can make decent money at it you can go get off your news look at floors

and and help people out but legitimately every day that you go out on a job the

knowledge you would get as a as a certified or as a flooring inspector helps you to be better at that job right

so Kendall says uh are there two different standards between residential and Commercial when it comes to moisture

testing asking because residential has wood subfloors different

methods that's right so for concrete it's the same for the wood you'll need to test that that wood with a basically

like a pin meter you know and you can you can get that wood moisture content of that subor and then the wood you're

going to install you can compare those and see what Ranger and what the manufacturer

requires for the wood so just the different methods just the different methods it's the same same testing and

requirements commercial versus residential just different between concrete yep and different different

standards per Floor Covering uh National wood floor Association has what is it 20

tests per thousand square feet Jason do you remember that off the top of your head crazy it's well above it's well

above and beyond what ASM 1869 and 2170 require and then also most Manu man

manufacturers usually will mirror the Asm standards but the nwfa is excessive

it's above and beyond it's crazy yeah something like 20 it's go ahead sorry yeah no go in their

defense yeah I get it you're really gonna get that real consensus and understand what's going on I get it and

it's wood floors which can be more sensitive to localized issues and localized problems so well I'm glad you

brought up earlier Paul about the the TR the um understanding what you're saying

like presenting from a Authority position that the fact is is that getting it's the difference between

being an installer it's been doing it 25 years and you learned from your uncle while you may know how to put the

product down uh what you are lacking is what I think our industry lacks a lot of

is professionalism understanding your craft understanding it not just how to do it

but why are you doing it that way why why are you doing a certain method why

is that necessary for a proper installation and when you get that knowledge you're more likely to do it

the right way yeah and we're not even talking like getting an inspector's certification per se right we're just

talking about getting trained like going through a a class to see what they're looking for you don't even have to go

get certified really it's just hey let me go check out what you guys are

looking for yeah I know a lot of inspectors are old installers and they got leg up so

Paul you you were just talking about um it benefiting installers and and how

that can Jason what's your thoughts on that absolutely and I think that's why

there's there's there's organizations like the nfct out there that are gonna you know if you take take that course

you're going to have so much more knowledge and learn really so much more about what you're doing instead of just

slapping things down bluing It Whatever cutting it you're going to have much more knowledge of what's going on I think that's what if you did take an

inspector course you're going to learn more about the products you're you know what it is that um you're dealing with

instead of just going through the motions because I think as you start off as helpers and you go to these levels you know you're just going through the

motions whatever that guy TS and to them and that's there's this lineage um and you just get in that rut

and that's what you do and you think that that's the way you do things but you're not really understanding why you're doing things what are these

products made out of and so taking these CL these courses are going to really help well round you to understand a

little bit more about what what you're doing you know yeah I always say confident confidence comes from the why

and you know what as an installer you're always continually learning you know if you mess up you cut a corner you don't

do something right and you get an inspector that comes out I think you have to and there's a lot of egos out

there there's big ego in the Flor row as you guys know right okay um but you know if you can Embrace some of that I've

been through it you know learn the hard way but that's you're still it's like going to school or college you're paying for things where you're going to pay for

it in different ways and it may be more expensive but you know it's a huge lesson and hopefully you don't do it

again there's two ways you learn you go through the hard way or somebody somewhere has taught you and you paid

attention sometimes sometimes that is the hard

sometimes is the hard way you could watch the Huddle listen to us go get

trained uh get some inspe courses through NCT and uh or there's other

organizations but Paul's like you know he's he Paul what they're doing yeah man you

gotta you gotta get get with that and I think there's a few things to think about when you're an installer if you

focus on a few things and that's really reading the manufacturers guidelines and then the second point would be reading

the manufacturers guidelines right Paul Mr pich you right because you know how your course is it's it's always hounding

and pounding that in because people don't read right we don't want we don't even take directions we just go drive we

figure it out right let com want a video man and there's a few things I mean if

you you guys know me I I just I I I preach and talk substrate substrate subfloor substrate subfloor because

hello right I mean these new prodcts that we're dealing with these days 30 years ago there wasn't the there wasn't the luxury vinyl Force per se I mean

there was like there was there was some like foro stuff but um not to where

things are today and you know getting your moisture your moisture your substrates expansion a few things

acclamation and you're going to be getting you're going to be you know on the road to success I understand that

people don't pay and money can be an issue and that's be for another Another Story Another topic as well another day

and I and I appreciate you putting up that thanks thanks for the the kind words there Jason too uh this course we

put together and we try to work with people as much as possible I think you all know that and I have known the guys

over at inspector Training Services will Stoner and Andrew fronsac for 20 years I served on the board of the National

Institute of certified floor coverings inspectors with them and and have done events with them and have just um they

they've been part of my growth within the industry part of my some of my mentors as I've I've grown up in the

industry and when I got a chance to go and do a class with them I think one of the advantages we've got here is you're

going to get certification from two organizations you're going to get a carpet inspector certification and a

advanced which is the carpet the commercial carpet side of it so from both organizations you'll have to pass

both exams and go through both processes but you'll get multiple listing sites

through one class um I really think we're going to do a mill tour we're

going to take a tour of a mill that basically starts as pellets and comes out as rolls so that's going to be a uh

it's one of the parts of the process that I really enjoy but I think that when you see the knowledge and the

variation between what you get in normal training uh for FL just just specific to

flooring inst installation when you start taking classes that go into the manufacturing process that go into you

know um determining cause of problems you start to see like like Paul was

saying you start to see the why you start to see the why you have to do it a certain way you start to understand in

more in depth that these things aren't just arbitrary uh rules to make it so that you avoid the warranty they're

actually important things that impact the performance of the material you're putting down so thank you for sharing

that I appreciate it yeah no problem I know you didn't ask me to but I wanted to share I mean um and it's it's not

just you know installers that can benefit from doing the inspector classes I've I've been in classes where

inspectors actually come to the installation class to learn learn more about it so that way they're inspecting

so it's kind of like we're learning from each other too so it it's it goes full

circle man like you can see Clayton just popped in

and 40 moisture test for the first 1,000 for wood floor covering and 20 for the

first 10,000 for wood so I mean think about that who that's that's crazy I mean but that's what they say and you

see a lot of these manufacturers it's really it's designed it's really difficult for installers to comply to

all of that you got to try to check as many boxes as you can but I understand

the difficulty of it and plus everybody wants it yesterday there's timing we got bills to pay you got put food on the

table I get it so there's all these things and so that's why I feel sometimes installers end up cutting

cutting some Corners um because of they just they roll the dice they roll the dice right and that's where like I got

the the floor Cloud uh QR code pulled up right here and that's the thing right it's the technology that we have right

now to make things so much easier where you just go set it up and then you can keep track of everything when you're not

even on the job site like man the the technology these days people need to to start getting on it and making things

that much easier that way when inspectors do come around it's like hey do you have this it's like absolutely

man it's right here take a look at it yeah the more you can

the more you can leverage that the the more efficient you can be um so along

that vein as inspectors when you come out on a

core a a inspection no matter who hired you what is your your full intent I'm

going to set this up actually your full intent is to just get down to the you stated it earlier Jason to the to what

happened you're not really I mean I think there's this aura about like

inspectors are against installers like I stated early on but that's not really the case for most inspectors um the what

is your guys as true like what is not maybe maybe job is the right way to say

it what is your real what is your goal when you go to a site our goal ultimately is to be

unbiased I mean unbiased is the word we're not we're supposed to come in there and have no feelings about a job

whatsoever it is what it is the job tells us what's going on and you know um

that's exactly how we are supposed to call it we're not um we're not supposed

to go in there and try to hang it on anybody we're not showing up I think

installers probably if I had one one side of it to say that installers get

that feeling is because Manu when I said before that manufacturers make a product they say give you the product they say

install it this way maintain it this way keep it in this environment have this kind of traffic they

have Clayton this is

why oh yeah um you know we go in and we we um we the manufacturers make the

rules for usage the rules for installation so even if I walk in as an

inspector and I say I totally understand why you did that and makes complete sense to me but you know I can't say it's right I can't say you know take it

the manufacturer says do it this way or we don't warranty it that's the bottom

line so we are kind of in that we're frequently in that position to say hey the manufacturer sets the

rules for the product they sell right yeah and what in what what

cases do you guys um when when a manufacturers installation instructions

uh how often do you find they go again against umm recommendations like

standards you ever run across that manufacturing instructions manufactur

instructions or installers yeah no the the installation instructions from the

manufacturer conflicting with um say any

of the have you ever ran across any of that right where where a manufactur

manuf no I mean like they say to install it XYZ way acclamation is one that comes

to mind some uh many manufacturers say no acclamation needed for a particular

lvt and then you can find in other documents industry documents that recommend that it should be acclimated

even though that manufacturer States clearly on their stuff not no

acclamation needed manufacturers instructions supersede industry standard

because they're very specific products especially on that side of it you know on the wood side of of of things maybe

there's not as much that they can do to a certain product but these are completely engineered materials they're not you know just harvested and and made

so um yeah if they make something and they feel they can get a competitive advantage on some of those things and

the bottom line is that if they say it they have to stand behind it right they say that you don't have to acclimate it

and then it fails because you didn't acclimate it there's other things that if they're

not there you can default to ASN standards paracity testing Matt whatever

Matt B different things but you can but just like Paul said you that's that's

that's what you have to follow with what they say and if you comply to all that in theory you should be covered so Jimmy

says you know he's just being honest as an installer he had some jobs fail if he didn't have a training background he

would have been stuck inspector he believes it's the inspector's job to get the manufacturers off the hook because

it was an obvious manufa a material issue and then him arguing he proved that it was installation related in the

end they had to pay him to replace the defective floor and then Rollin follows

that up with if they are to be fair then why so many times he hears they are checking in areas that have no problem

looking for something wrong so um this is kind of goes back to my brother's

sters talking about about inspectors right this is this is the the kind of

the fight that we we were were hoping to kind of see right and I think this goes back to my brother's issue earlier cuz

when um the job that he was talking about with the VCT being in the area

where it failed and then them saying no it's an installer issue and then he said

we were like no we're certified to in saw your product and then magically they were like okay never

mind so well I wanted to touch I did see that when I wanted I'm sorry did I interrupt go ahead

no I did want to touch on what what Rin said I'll say flat out that um I learned

a lesson so I I in my own uh experience now keep in mind we talked about that

experience is what you get when things go right and wisdom is what you get when things go wrong but um

I had one job and it was really early on and I was doing a it was just a texture claim on a carpet and I was trying to be

this diligent inspector the manufacturer had given me this checklist I went through and part of the checklist was

checking for seam sealer don't ask me I was a new inspector and I went ahead and I said oh gee I'll I'll do what they

asked I ran into that installer and and I forget I'm sorry I don't know if it was a texture claim but anyway they

denied the claim and they blamed it on the seam sealer which had nothing to do with the claim and ever since then I

have never looked at a thing that was unrelated to the claim I've told manufacturers when they send those checklists that I'll look at everything

that's pertinent to the claim but I absolutely will not look at you know um

I'm not going to look at uh I'm not gonna look at expansion space when I'm out on a gloss claim for

example now yeah is already thinking of examples where expansion space can uh can affect what you think is gloss but

so a there's one of two things either it's an inspector that is inexperienced

who doesn't quite understand that you're not supposed to be out there hunting for or looking for other issues um the other thing though it

could be two-sided because we get it frequently when we go out on a claim and the homeowner will get us there and

suddenly that one claim they had for um for for crackling noises become six

different items that they want us to look at while we're there and the manufacturers say well take a look at all of it so tell tell me why they did

this hey I do it the same time to doctors every time I got a doctor's appointment

you know I try to get it over in one point appointment that's why your bill goes from free to

$800 you know I I got one I got I saw a report where it was a a finish claim and

the report they're checking for expansion so it kind of blew me away but um you know sometimes with those

protocol that we have to follow and you have on you have to rule so sometimes I have Stars what are you doing that for

what are you looking over there well maybe I'm ruling things out right maybe I have to do a comparison guys like why

are you checking moist over there but little does he know I'm doing a qu I'm qualifying some areas I gotta get a

reference point so that you know but I'm not going into that but the guy thinks I'm an idiot doing what I'm doing I'm

doing a hammer tap test in an a goes what the hell are you doing what you know and I'm I'm ruling things out or

I'm following protocol you still have to be somewhat thorough because sometimes when you you you try to surmise or think

something but you get in there and you you're real thorough and you do a deep dive you realize oh my God this actually

this is going on and another thing is I'll be there and they'll be the lawyer they'll be this person that person four

people and they try to sell you on something they try to steer you off into the wrong direction on something and ah

I know what this guy is doing it's totally not that right that's such a classic one oh outside over there

there's an apple tree in this G what so but that a lot of that stuff happen

so my point is you got to be kind of thorough you got to rule some things out and check some things out even though it may not obviously on a finish you don't

need to check Gap expansion space right but there are some things you have to be somewhat thorough and that could be

sometimes spe question for you guys yes go s and

and just popped in my head with what he was saying is uh now we're in the DIY

era right and and if uh if a homeowner can can file a claim and hire an inspector or an inspector gets sent

out when you guys go to a DIY what are the I guess what is the the the failure

rate versus homeowner install versus manufacturer defect do they understand

150% okay I'm just asking because like you know it's uh you know this so so easy an electrician can do it type

things but um we had just had the there was a post I think you guys talked about

recently that was um you guys talked about a PO I think

where they just talked about oh oh that one yeah yes the corch post yes and no

skilled labor required ofs that the instructions also say test the test sub florn ASM thism

that you know requir

yeah I missed that so uh what just so it was in one of the magazines right and it

was and I already said it so I'm going to say it again it was a ctech post and

right there in big bold letters it said no skilled labor required to install it yeah and then

Paul did was it in the fine print right there on that page or was it did you look up

the specs on it I just looked up the the installation instructions quick so look up the

installation instructions and it says right in the installation instructions test for this test for that has to be

within this tolerance but but you don't have to be skilled to do that yeah so so

they were just referring to the installation yeah think about that being qualified to do these moisture tests

when you if you do go to court did you use a qualified person um to do these

these tests right that's another one if not you don't even you're already done look at the end of the day there's

very few DIY products that are actually DIY they the substrate that Jason kind

of obsessed on in our first podcast with him which rightfully so uh that matters

way more almost more than how you put the product in nine times out of 10

that's going to be the thing that grabs you is um not not doing the floor prep

correctly or not um not testing for moisture not putting the the the

moisture barrier they tell me I wasn't paid to do it that's what they tell me on site when

I have conversations with them when I can speak I know I wasn't paid to I wasn't paid to put a moisture beer I

wasn't paid to prep the customer didn't pay me my boss didn't pay me they're not paying me well maybe they told me not to

do it maybe not what about this one right here I think that's comment right here guys and I got a comment on an

email right here that says uh we've never had to do that in any other building all over the whole

country we're talking about prep for VCT yeah yeah well unfortunately that

that's the kind of stuff that we run up against and and uh from the installer

side the truth is is that installers the going back again to Paul's earlier

comment being uh well educated on our craft not just

having the hand skills to actually do it but having the Mind skills and the professionalism to understand why you're

doing it that way will go a long way and and if you're not getting paid to do

something you just don't you don't just then do the next step that that in every

contract that I get uh for in the commercial world and

uh so we don't get a lot of contracts in the residential world I don't I don't think but uh

in the in the commercial world all the contracts state that once you start applying your our product to the

previous guy's product you you own it so you have to bring up the problems and stop uh for example this applies to

cheat rockers right the plumber didn't have uh on a project the valves stemmed

out to where he could cut around them and they just laid the sheet walk over them and what happened they had to go

take all that down at on their own dime it's the same thing with Florine we install over a bad

concrete or wood substrate we don't stop bring up the problem create a solution

and then apply that solution then we are taking responsibility for the the issue

not being paid for it or you know whatever that is not an excuse just

don't it's that's where Integrity comes in right Integrity comes in that that's

one of our our core values and we talk about this with the guys a lot and they're like um I thought you said we

weren't getting paid for that I said I know we're not getting paid for it but we have to do it like it's that's the

thing it's gonna take 45 minutes of our time like it's gonna take 45 minutes

just get it done I know it's going to be right just do it yeah there's the right

way and the easy way right and so that's that's an issue that that plagues a lot of installers is

easy can I'm going to say that one of the the problems is that

installers um having the thought that they that being paid for the installation is only to take this

product and click it to another piece of the same product that is not installation my friends that is you

might as well be a DIY if you're not going to take the next step of being a professional knowing why you're doing

something and knowing what you what what the right steps are if you're if you're properly educated I'll use um like a

just a a vapor barrier underneath you know um ctech or any any floating uh uh

uh click product that's supposed to be there it's in the install instructions if you're not paid for it maybe that's

when you don't accept the project from the company or from the like I won't do this unless I I've got to do this piece

and you got to pay me to do this piece or else I can't do it

that's that's having integrity and standing up too uh sometimes it's like how long is it going to take you to do

uh uh to roll out the VIS Queen and put it down if you can still get it done and still make good money for the day do it

and you know you got it done right what if the installer just doesn't know that that's what you're supposed to do will

that hold up in court yeah well I didn't know you were supposed to do that so you know I don't

need to do it right that doesn't work that that doesn't work you know but um

I'll tell you that a lot of times what what happens is it's also

that chain right when you have four men or the managers or the owners or whoever they're working for um there's no

communication and you know I think you guys have all touched upon this but also can go back to estimating too and

improper estimating or bidding projects or and then you get in there yeah and

then you realize oh I'm you know I'm not going to make any money out and so then you start getting into these moral

issues and judgment calls depending on if it's a contractor or if it's subed out or if it's an employee there's going

to be different mindsets along the way which could cause you know cause because unfortunately when when an inspector

goes out to to inspect costing somebody some

money you know every time right every time and it's it's sad sometimes when I

go out and I see some of these guys and they they just did bonehead moves I think to myself gosh man and I have to

report it properly and I just feel you know but you know you're going to learn and hopefully you learn from this

mistake like Paul said you know you either win or you become wise and hopefully you know it doesn't cost you

too much because lot one job can put can can bankrupt a business yeah well one

job could pay for your proper training uh to get your training ahead of time

that's why we're out here educating to to try and get in front of all that all of this stuff it's a struggle I I we

fight from go careera to the Huddle we we are aligned on getting properly

trained to install products and and you know go careera is uh an

accreditation uh process for installers but at the end of the day we we the

whole purpose is to get trained you can either spend your money or invest it

when you get trained that stays with you it's like putting money in the stock market or you can go spend it on Jolly

Ranchers or whatever the hell and it's gone forever um the the the whole goal

is to and and who know like you can't even put a dollar figure on the stress

and the the the the the pressure that comes on you when you have a big

claim so avoid all that get properly trained get get some in uh inspect

courses you know I'm I'm going to myself take an inspector course and N afct is

is a great place to go guys so like get get an inspector course under your belt

make sure you got the industry standard training as well that you have uh if

it's a product you know a manufacturer specific training or you know getting

your standard kind of um I'd call it you know industry training from a CFI uh you

or an aft or one of the the training entities and I know NCT also has some

trainings the get educated get professional get trained and then you

can you you're you're starting off in such a better place than the the learn

as you go take your hits lose money and you're going to get taught one way or

another or you're it's going to cost you to get taught one way or another it's much better to invest it early on and

you'll have a happier in stallation career and and if I could add just one thing to that with all of these

questions you that everybody had with with with inspectors and their socalled

or or perceived allegiances listen if you can go to a doctor who's got eight years of school and and a million

dollars worth of student loans maybe um and you can go to them and get a second opinion when they have told you what's

wrong with you you sure as heck can go get a second opinion on a flooring inspector go find somebody else bring

them in if you disagree with it there's nothing wrong with that it doesn't need to be ar done that before yeah I was

going to bring that up because we talked about like the biases when you're like or yeah the biases and you think that an

inspector is out to get you and you know when they don't invite you and who hires

this person because we've been on that side where we were an an installer right we were labor only the the flooring

store hired an inspector and then said hey they said that you that's what

exactly what they said you guys didn't use seam sealer we said oh really all right we are gonna hire our own

inspector to go out there never mind never mind I would behoove them to do it I

mean they bring Mr please Shi in behind me all the time but I just come out squeaky

C you're good hey I've been I've been in litigation

with with inspectors I'm good friends with you know we can we can also disagree on things and sometimes we

agree on things in different uh in different ways but you know we had a

friend inspect our stuff and fail it oh not even and that was a couple years ago

it was and it was like there's no way but you know what no we're we're still friends we're still great friends and he

he failed it and it wasn't it wasn't based on installation it was based on um

false information that was given to us by the GC

but at the end of the day the the the um

if the that's a good uh example of an inspector just doing his job regardless of what the

deal is like doing his job and I've I've won inspections because I hired another

inspector come down and I mean it happens and like Paul just said it's get

a second opinion if if you don't agree but many of them don't do that if I I

find let me say this I would imagine that it's it's not as um comfortable to

ask for a second inspection if you haven't been properly trained um and you

don't know if you if you have been you have that confidence that like I'm gonna hire like an untrained

guy is scared of two inspectors saying it's your fault now where do you go

right so hire a third and a fourth Keep On hiring until someone says it's not your fault eventually the stack the deck

stacked against you at the end of the day I I'm I know I'm drilling on training but to me that's that's like

the secret weapon is really knowing what you're doing and what you're talking about and then hire getting that second

opinion you know and or third in some cases I mean I mean

they so I wonder possibilities I wonder what the um what is the Manu when you

guys um do manufacturers hate it when you fail their floor and find them at

fault they argue sometimes that's a question I've been uh

given listen if I could if I could say one thing um

inspectors as a group and this happened just a little before I got involved with another group um early on we were

inspecting floors on the wood floor side this was probably 15 years ago now um we

would go out and look at checks and manufacturers would say that checks were site related and that was their company

line they said now that's that's not part that's not our fault these are site

related issues and the floor checks from a from a dry environment when you have insufficient humidification over winter

Etc so some inspectors a group of inspectors went and talked to Alex Weeden Hoff down at Forest Products lab

and they talked to some guys over at some some universities and talked to them and this and these these these wood

professionals came and said no that's impossible because you need about a I don't know if it was like a 10% gradient

to create enough enough uh tension to to tear the the wood grain it has to happen

fairly rapidly that doesn't happen within a within a home environment so

inspector started to refer to that and we started talking about it and how that happened in the Kil drying process when

um you know and and what happens is they would dry down and then the checks would open up and then the condition they

would they steam it they add some moisture to it and then all the checks close up then they put it in the house it gets dry and those those existing

checks open up well so inspectors work towards finding

the right answers not just taking answers that were given by the industry and provided by the industry and when

that happened the industry just went and said well that's characteristic of what it's not a defect but that's a different

story how convenient you you bought it we do as

inspectors we do look for areas that we can find proof because we we're supposed

to implement the scientific method right we're supposed to go in there we're supposed to create a theory on what's happening with the floor we're supposed

to take the tests that are designed to test that theory to make sure it's correct or not correct and if it is

correct we can move on with the proof according to our testing if it's not correct then we we have to find a different Theory and start over when

Jason was talking earlier about the things that you go and do when you go look at a flooring and you're looking at something and think oh this is

completely unrelated well you might be testing a theory and finding out that that theory is wrong you could be doing

something that um you think is unrelated but that was that inspector's first

first hypothesis that he's going in to say well I think this is what's doing it

it's not it we moved on to a different to a different thought so you know if you bu the scientific method any of

you'll start to realize quickly that inspections is a very cut and dry business it has very little to do with

personal opinions on somebody's um ability or somebody's

profession that's right you don't really care you gotta you gotta you know get the facts just the facts ma'am well

that's what Clayton says right he's at this comment right here the answers are in the floor and presenting that

information in a way that is inarguable so so the answers are there you just got

to find them right and I think that's the the biggest takeaway from today is is that one if you're getting an

inspector that you feel is uh kind of going behind your back and trying to to go in the manufacturer's

favor you you always have that that option to to get your own opinion right hire hire your own inspector and and see

uh see what they say and two man go to these classes because you want to know

what they're looking for and you guys are called inspectors for a reason you're there to inspect and that's why

you're over there doing something like why is he over there he's inspecting that's his job yeah you're gonna find

out why you're gonna find out why they're looking at something how to install properly you should be getting

the the proper training certifications do so and then go to one of these inspector courses that'll help you

understand why they're looking at different things and maybe you misunderstood Rollins I love Rolland but I thought I'd

bring up his comment earlier you know that uh checking areas that don't have a

problem like it seems like Paul was alluding that could be testing a hypothesis about the the actual problem

who knows but the point is you won't know till you learn so we are rounding up on the hour here

what was you g to say uh Jose I was just wondering if uh if they

have gadgets to go with their inspector title inspector Gad lots of gadgets many

gadgets so I know you guys are go ahead said and also um when when Daniel or I

or one of us from preferred come down to to take the class um is it gonna come with a shirt that says uh science don't

lie on the back oh not bad trademark we already trademarked

that tradar just the fact

[Music] man maybe go ahead Jason I was gonna

tell Mr pich I do the col uh uh one more

thing you're leaving you're leaving you're leaving one more thing um did you do a moisture

testing hey I'll say sometimes I I know we could talk all day I say sometimes I

uh um we'll go out and whatever I think the problem is with the floor I'll do it last because I've gotten yelled at for

checking like flatness and things like that so sometimes I just say what I think it is to last so if they're gonna

start yelling at me I can just do it quick and get out the door yeah yeah I did the combo I did the combo last week

to the guy who showed up on site and was mad at me because I couldn't tell him anything and I was leaving and I go oh

one more thing did did you do did you do did you do the moisture test oh man well I did the calcium chloride and the the

the the RH and manufacturer I go did you did you do it though and then you know

no okay thank you have a nice day right guy almost sounded like Aro Schwarzenegger for a

second yeah yeah but like Mr pek says doing it last sometimes like that that's

a yeah okay so let's round this out we all

agree that being properly trained is your first line defense uh maybe

considered taking the inspector course to understand more why and um up your

professionalism and then the inspectors are not your enemy a

lot of times uh engaging with them and being their present and helping them um

Can can uh turn out it's not always going it's not like they're there to get

you I guess is what I'm trying to say uh they're there to find the problem and you can always go back and get a second

opinion if you if you need one so um advice let's round it out with advice

for installers uh outside of what I just said about getting trained and uh

actually taking the inspector course what what when they're dealing with an inspector um on a

project best practices like what what helps you guys out from the uh

inspector's side and I'll kick it off with the installer side maybe we can just go around the uh room

to me I love it when you know what I look for an inspector is someone who actually is trying to discover the issue

regardless uh and a lot of times you can tell and uh it's not always pointing

towards one way or the other um but friendliness and um you know having your

report match the the stuff you say on site um or otherwise maybe don't say

anything anything or or tell me you can't say something or or what have you

um whatever you need to do that's from the installer company kind of perspective uh you know don't have those

two conflict that would be a big uh big thing for me what about one of you inspectors H how can installers and

companies work with you the best when you are on site make this thing go as good as

possible if we can discuss maybe just be open to um

discussion and um not be confrontational and I think that um if you have an open

mind about things and you reallying to learn about what potentially is going on I think that's going to be beneficial

for for the installer and or the company that's commissioned or person I I personally

love documentation if you did moisture testing take pictures of it or get floor Cloud right I mean I love everything

that's done prior to the installation to help me exclude everything

beforehand right if I can exclude everything leading up to installation based on your documentation suddenly I

can come in there and say well okay what happened after the installation um if you can verify the flatness if you go

through and you know get some pictures show what you did show where the areas were um with wood floor Subs with wood

sub Flo they change and it doesn't necessarily mean you know when I see a a

wood subfloor issue if it's six months out that's one thing if I'm five years down the road

what's changed when did the issue arise so for me documentation everything that you have that documents everything that

you did helps me to say that not I think this is what you did but this I know this is what you did because you showed

me pictures of it you showed me what you did yeah for sure how about another

flooring guy I what I look for in in an inspector is someone to come over and uh

when you're done inspecting to buy me lunch easy damn damn it Daniel damn it I

was gonna say buy me tacos that's it and and that's only because that's happened

almost every time and I think that's probably because like I said every time I'm I have an

inspector it's always hey you guys did everything right and then it's always can I buy you lunch and I think they

just want to pick my brain because they don't they probably don't come across someone with as much knowledge as you

know as we have and they're just like where where did you learn from where did

you get this information from and it's like you know I just tell them man it's

it's because we were so I learned from the Huddle you know

that's where we learned from if I were put in that situation again and not go back through all my

experiences uh with inspectors is uh just just understand that uh not

everybody not everybody knows everything about flooring and sometimes those

people are there to learn and as soon as as soon as they feel like it's going uh

in the opposite way and not in their favor they are gonna get a little defensive and just bear with them be a

little patient cool hey do you guys want to give your uh information because you

guys are still inspecting right so if anyone's in your area they can hire you

guys yeah where can they find you Jason if they're out in California how do they get a hold of you Nate Nate you are

right uh OC flooring inspections.com or California flooring service is my

installation company either one thank you Paul uh listen I mostly mostly come out

to these things for the National Association of Floor Covering technicians for the education of it I

still do inspections in Wisconsin you got Google you can find me but um what's your cell phone

number just Google just Google Paul pck inspector he'll pop up um

but we've uh you know we've we've got a a vinyl course we did online I think we're going to we've got some things

lined up I think we'll you'll see some different inspection things coming up here we've got the carpet one down in

Georgia it's the best place to do it because that's where the flooring is frankly the more you get manufacturers involved in your inspector courses the

more you can have conversations uh that are sort of off the off the Record when

you can get in manufacturers aside and and ask them questions where they're not

you know being documented and so forth they can give you some different answers and different things to look for so

getting to an inspector course that's down in Georgia really does pay for itself because that's where the that's

where the manufacturers can come hang out and and and just kind of get to know everybody that's there so you know we we

appreciate that and uh we appreciate your you guys support with the Huddle and you know everything that you guys do

for the industry I don't know is that our QR code that says insector or in in

inspector oh yep that's me I that don't I don't know how to spell apparently I was doing it while we were

talking that's okay get it does it does take you to the right spot though you

got the right you got the main part correct so well thanks guys for joining us today

it's been it's awesome as usual with these uh things we could probably talk another hour and not even know went by

but uh for the algorithms and the love if you enjoy what you've watched or

found it you know informational please give us a subscribe a like on whatever platform you're watching um comment let

us know what you want to hear and uh I want to thank Daniel and Jose for all

the contributions and and holding the huddle up and helping it keep going um

thank you uh Jason and Paul for joining us today it was a great conversation and uh I'm sure we'll have round two in the

near future absolutely and also if if you don't like the content still like And subscribe and just bash us all the

time yeah interact either way baby all right guys well it's been a

pleasure I thank you guys for joining us until next week we'll talk to guys we'll see you all right thanks gentlemen