The Huddle - Episode 54 - Uniting the Industry
This week the guys had special guests Beth Miller, Sonny Callaham, and Jerry Lee to talk about training, trade shows, and uniting the industry.
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The HUDDLE is where the flooring industry can get together and talk about everything! Lead by Paul Stuart from Go Carerra who is joined by Daniel and Jose Gonzalez from Preferred Flooring.
what's up floor and family welcome to
the huddle we come at you every Tuesday at 3 P.M Central to discuss maintaining
Ford progress in your flooring career with me today as always is Daniel and
Jose Gonzalez from preferred flooring up in Michigan we got some special guests today we got Jerry Lee Sonny Callahan
and Beth Miller I'll let you guys go through and do a brief introduction here you want to start us off there Jerry
yeah I appreciate you guys having me so my name is Jerry Lee I work with protect all commercial flooring been in the
industry for 22 years not only worked with vinyl flooring but also some resinous and Port floors also but uh
very good very glad to be a part of this today thanks for having me awesome thanks for being here Beth
hey everybody I'm Beth Miller with FCI magazine I'm the managing editor and I
get to spend every day talking to you lovely people so it's kind of nice to actually be on the other end of the game
well welcome aboard glad to have you nice Sunny yeah hey everybody appreciate you
having me on Paul Sonny Callahan um the founder of Divergent adhesives but also
more importantly the founder of nafct along with Paul pleshack and uh we're here to talk about how we can educate
everybody in the industry and pull us all together so I appreciate you having us awesome well welcome aboard
uh so today's uh topic is uniting the flooring industry and we were talking
offline here just a moment ago about how that that could probably be a be a
four-hour podcast because there's so many uh different uh Realms in the
flooring to unite but in general I the the topic is aimed at
for me I see the biggest divide being we go to say a show and you see all these
beautiful flooring products there and everybody's doing it on and I've taken a
few people to their first show at coverings or something like that they get pretty big-eyed didn't understand
the flooring industry was as big as it is uh and then I always point out like all
that pretty stuff doesn't matter if you don't have somebody who's going to put it in professionally like it just
doesn't matter it it you'll take this beautiful product and make it look like you know make it look like hell for lack
of a better word so you know the biggest divide I see is manufacturers make stuff
Distributors distribute stuff the flooring companies buy it and they
need labor but there's there's been over the last oh I I don't know I guess it
could be up for argument's sake at least a decade or two where uh the flooring installation Community
kind of falling from Grace from a qualities perspective uh I asked a
question many times and I could pose it to this panel but if you either know people that installed back in the 40s
and 50s or um did it yourself I often ask a
question was the installation quality the craftsmanship better than or now just as a whole and it was it's hands
down I mean we know the answer it's kind of rhetorical but they were so well trained and most were employee
installers at a flooring company of some sort and today those Dynamics have changed it's split the industry a bit
and uh so that's what we're here to talk about it has a long introduction Let's Get It On
no so what do you guys think of uh from a training aspect I mean we don't have a
flooring College uh we're just kind of now getting a very introductory level
course that's been kind of um inserted into different community colleges what do you guys think of these
approaches no I think it's great uh if you guys
don't mind me I'll go first I I think it's great uh you know I'm looking at this panel I'm thinking about all the
people who are listening chances are I've met you through an association right so get involved with the group
that's closest to your uh your goals and Ambitions in the industry right so you
know most of you guys are through fcica I've met you CFI and other groups like that but being able to take the time and
and it's not even the training for me it's the networking get to get to know the people that if you do have a problem
on a job site you know who to call right it's the you know it's if you don't know the answer you know the person to call
to get the answer and I think a lot of people misunderstand what training is at that point
um they think well okay I got this certification I should make twice as much as what I'm paying that doesn't
necessarily equate to the same thing right it's the ease of making your job better
yeah good points I think training is because of the
siled nature of it uh in our industry I think the advice you just gave of
finding the association the closest fits your I don't know your skill set whether
it's tile or carpet or whatever there's an organization for each one and then getting involved is the key as
installers if you're an independent installer you are your company you are a
company and you you getting involved is a big
piece of I think healing the industry in a lot of ways um but anyway yeah great points honey
how about you uh Jeff Jerry
well I'm thinking it was me because I didn't see a Jeff on the call but um you know that training's been a um a
difficult Dynamic for us uh one is you know there's a lot of times that we set up and host classes and you know we
arrive to do a two-day session and you know installers get called out to the job so then are we getting the right
people into those and you know I get it everybody's busy and you know due to labor shortages so we've done some
things to try to accommodate uh just to you know beyond deposits and things like that but really to to make it intriguing
and uh you know to get the right people in but you know for us it's a training isn't one session it's uh it's follow-up
six months later touching you know welding again and uh some of the the more detailed items just to make sure
that it's stuck after that two-day class so it's uh you know we've expanded our training force in the last year just
just so we can make those extra touches and keep expanding on it and you know we just did a contractor focus group and
when we do get those groups together to try to bring in other resources to talk about adhesive and prep and some of
those types of things so training is one of the most important things that we do and uh you know we're continuing to
think of creative ways especially after the pandemic when people didn't want us to you know we couldn't be face to face
so we started some virtual sessions but now getting back to that face to face but expanding on all those so we can
just continue to keep that knowledge going and uh we're still looking for good ways to make sure that you know the
classes are attended when we get there and uh we don't have the the best answer yet but
um continuing to kind of dive into those topics with my group and uh come up with better ways
when you do the your guys's training do you guys train on
um the floor prep side of things ahead of or is it pretty focused on it's it's pretty detailed on protect
all um we're starting to get into more of the floor prep but one of the the other
uh suggestions that we've had from some of the people on my team is when we do one of those we have somebody from a
tool manufacturer come in we have somebody from a crap manufacturer come in just to
to try to make the best of that and bring that extra knowledge to those groups and we've had some success with
it it's still not where we want it to be but we're making efforts around that so it's but then you're always up against
the the time Factor because now you're bringing in you know it's full two days could roll into three
but we're trying to do that in a condensed fashion just to to uh offer that extra bit of knowledge Beyond just
the protect all side yeah that's United that's that's a form of uniting is and I know Sonny you do
this a lot with the NFA NF uh CT is naft sorry uh Jeff's with us and he'll he'll
he'll back me up on that one the is uniting these different uh
manufacturers to because everybody's products got to play together right and
figure out how that works um and sometimes you just don't know so
it's it's great for those trainings to be um together but
absolutely outside of training how how you know I know it's the one time we can
all get together and that seems like uniting but how do we unite the industry overall to uh really back the training
entities um in a meaningful way I know there's some successes out there and some of you guys
can speak on this better than myself but I thought I'd pose the question you know how how is the manufacturing I
know they're you know um involved with the fcef and and
um a lot of the other associations but still seems to me like training is still like put on the back burner for stuff
and it just it blows my mind I'm an old installer so like I installed protect all I've been installed a lot of sheet
goods and resilient products where kind of I lived and it just still seems like
uh it's the for it still seems to be forgotten a bit I don't know yeah for me
I think it starts with the manufacturers right these manufacturers starting to bring just what well like what Jerry
said they're starting to bring more people in and start training again well if you have one person training this way
and another person training the other way you've got to make sure they're teaching the best practices right so what we've
done is we've created the curriculum so that the technical department can have the curriculum to standardize what
all these different companies are teaching but we also allow them to be product
specific so we've all been to Association presentations and we're talking about the self leveler the
patching compound the this where the manufacturers can teach the correct curriculum or at least a
standardized curriculum and then plug in their product you get sales and
marketing and you get technical well guess who gets the money sales and marketing gets the money right so if we
can combine the two together we've seen a lot of success with having people go through the class and and just
standardize it but again I think having a manufacturer involved is key to success
well Beth you talk to manufacturers a lot what's the does installation come up
uh all uh thumbs up if I ask I was gonna say I was
going to preface that with uh every or every magazine I read or article if it's
not pro installer there's like this or we're on this kick of the labor
shortage for a time you can see it in the Publications it's like all of a sudden labor shortage comes up again and it's in every one of them but for the
most part outside that like uh uniting together to have this standardized curriculum which I I've
always thought it was very clever way to bring in manufacturers and and get a
training that each one trains on their products a specific uh and standardized
way and that's that's a great way to use product demos which you know I know you
elongate those it's not just a product demo but still like the set and your sales reps and people
like that can get involved and it comes out of different pots at the manufacturing uh so we we've all heard
about solution based selling this is solution Based training that's all it is right we teach what can go wrong on the
job and in our manufacturer our educational Partners they teach how to use their products to fix that problem
because if I just if I teach you how to use my product what did I just do I just
sold you my product yeah you kind of touch them both in yeah that's one of the big complaints with installers we
did we've done multiple surveys uh the number one reason installers are not
certified that was the question we asked why are you uh are you certified if not why that's basic the survey number one
reason I don't know where to go number two reason it doesn't make me any
more money the number three reason they just do not think it makes them any better they
don't see any value in it whatsoever yeah so you know it kind of plays all to this you know in my opinion we need to
start um really having a higher expectation of
you know the manufacturer to continue to work with these things and the installer
to take advantage of the the train I mean Jerry can't train you can't train I mean Beth can't put out training
um topics and and locations without the training happening and installers participating so the installer
participation pieces is another one that just I don't know how to fix it perfectly other than what I'm doing at
go Carrera which is you know giving them lasting value but that third one that
third point was well yeah say forbo it's it's great if I'm installing four mode but outside
data doesn't give me any value well if you've installed before and ever messed
with four bow or been through one of their trainings you know that just going to even if you don't get the certificate
just going to the forebo train now I don't know where that's at this moment because I know they pulled back on that and yeah they have a great class
forward protect all's classes another good example we've sent three or four installers to to Michigan for that
um but the thought processes it's great when I'm installing that floor it doesn't make me
anything else unless I'm bidding on installation for that product what go career does just give them lasting value
so that's our attempt at like making these trainings mean something long term
um but you know I I do think that that's one of the you know the industry
told us the installer said well we don't see the value you know we don't know where to go so
they've told us what problems to fix we've got to unite together to try to fix those that's my two cents but I I
kind of want to interject on that I want to interject on that for a second real quick it's already rub guys but uh
uh the they don't see any value and it doesn't make them any more money right so you're probably right in the sense
but if that's the if that's where you're gonna stay mentally that you then you probably don't need to make more money you probably don't deserve to make more
money um and you um the training and the certifications
don't make you more money they make you more valuable to yourself and to the industry so in turn you can generate
additional Revenue right you might not make more money per square foot but your
failure rate is going to decrease and then the phone calls that you get because of your success rates and the
high-end work you kick out is going to increase which in turn could could dictate the your value a little bit more
now you're more valuable to the industry to your local people and you can bump your your rates up a little bit because
you are valuable so just put the skills to like you said put the skills to work that you that you
learned and you will make more money that's yeah maybe not the day you get back from
training you know but several you you show you prove what that what these the
trainings you've been through you prove what they've done for your um your approach and technique and and
yes um Quality and then you can demand more we have guys uh uh as uh Stewart
Associates and installation um companies that
do absolutely fantastic work and they do get paid more by us they're less
headache we know we're not going to have to go out to the job site as much I mean you will make more money I don't know
where that came from that is just what the survey said but the in the so it's obvious I know where it came from
standardized from people like me they came from people like me they're back in the day when when people said go get
your certifications like it ain't gonna do me any justice you know go learn something why I already know how to do it right I was stubborn I was big-headed
it came from people just like me I know exactly where it came from and that's that that's why it's easy for me to go
ahead and and push back on that now because this if you guys aren't willing to invest in yourself like I wasn't willing to invest
in myself a while ago I mean it wasn't until Daniel push pushed me through that door right like hey dude we got to start
doing this it's like dude you're right I don't have anything to show for 20 almost 20 years of of installation like
you're right and uh if you don't invest in yourself you
won't receive any additional funds you won't receive anything in addition to what you're already making
um and you know and granted some people are after the the large dollars some
people are after the long term the longevity of their career and there's there's no wrong way when you're going
and getting educated and training yourself if you want the large dollar you'll get educated train yourself be
have more knowledge right familiarize yourself with more than one product because the the whether you like
it or not those disciplines they overlapped they overlap the more you know about everything and collectively
the better off you are well the more the guy the guys that know that you can send to do a tile job and then turn around
and send them to do a flash coach sheet bottle project they're like worth their weight in gold
[Music] the way you were the way you did think
uh is is flawed right and you change that and look at the results I mean I
this podcast has been here to try to expose that if you will just take the
step and get yourself to these training courses go to go
careers training page go to the nasct's training page go to there there are a
lot of places to go now where you can find it you got to take the leap of faith I just I get what you're saying
but that's where it came from but how do we fix that you know how do you fix the people that believe that and it's only
education and then a podcast like this that bring out the truth I I made more
money after I started getting certified and this was after I started this company it was just a mindset shift well
I think a lot of it has to do with like he said you know your your mindset and then thinking that why do I need this I
already know how to do it and then what happens if you go to your first class and then you learn that you know one or
two nuggets and it's like I never thought of that before and I'm never gonna do it the old way again and then
it's like well what else have I been doing wrong and then further in your education from there because
man what else do you mean this has got to be humble enough to say all right I don't know everything
from someone that does we don't know what you don't know [Laughter]
I was just gonna say there's some really important points in here first one uh yeah forebo that was my first
installation class that I ever attended I learned so much from that and it opened my eyes to you know just the
quality of the class and um you know I did starting off an installation I heard a lot about it
signed myself up for the class got in and uh but after that we've expanded uh
because we've had to uh to to get people interested in training
we in and you don't want to Market you know failures and things like that but we do talk about what can happen by not
going through it and you know anybody who's put in protect all if if they don't pay attention to the welding
process and we had one of the biggest challenges years ago we rolled out rapid weld because everybody you know a 30
year old heat welder he knows how to weld he's not going to come to a class learn how to put on rapid Weld and we
fought that battle but when we started to show some of that you know not Market us negatively but a poor weld what can
happen to you but you know one that's that's helped us a little bit also get people interested
in coming to classes is talking about bidding correctly and Jose you were touching on it
um you know timing that it takes to weld or base and those types of things so we we've added in a portion that is more
than just installation but knowing how to bid properly and make sure that you're making money on it and things like that and that's also it's helped a
little bit I can't say it's it's completely you know it has people knocking down our doors for it but you know we get good participation and
people are interested in that so we've expanded on topics like that also which you know that does catch people's
attention and it's it's been beneficial awesome yeah and I think Jose and Daniel nailed it I mean
it's it's not for the instant gratification I mean just look at the two of them look how long they've been
doing training five six years I don't know how long ago Daniel did we meet at a heat weld class yeah like five years
ago yeah it's been a while and look at the success you guys have had
um but you know the biggest challenge that I see from installers when we say we want them to come to a certification
course the their first thought is oh you're going to try to teach me how to install floors that's not what I'm doing
you know how to teach you know how to install floors I'm teaching you better ways to do it and if you pick up two or
three or four different points at the class guess what that's two or three or four different callbacks you're not
gonna get right you know it takes two or three of those a year to where you're making more money
right you don't have to go fix a headache because oh I learned that at a class that's making you money so you've
got to understand the principle of you know it's not just hey I want more per per you know per per square foot or per
yard whatever it is you know I I always tell people it's like a professional athlete right you think a major league
baseball player doesn't know how to play baseball he knows how to play baseball really good but guess what he does in
between games he practices he trains it's the exact same thing you can't
assume you can't rest on your laurels you can't assume that what you're doing is the right way or the best way I gave
a I gave a presentation last week about ASTM and ASTM standards
it's shocking that people don't know about these standards yet when there's a complaint against your work guess what
you're going to be judged by ASTM standards right and these guys don't have it in
their pocket you should be in your toolbox right next to your Hammer your project managers need to have it again
what we just said a few minutes ago you don't know what you don't know and when you get involved with these groups
for me I sit down with some Chrysler every time I can I think I know a lot about the industry I sit down with Tim
christler I don't say a word for an hour and a half I listen I learn from them and there's people like that all through
the industry that you've got to be humble and understand there's things that you can learn I love that part I love that part of the
industry by the way you guys that's my favorite the what no the part where everyone's willing to
share information yeah that is that's my favorite part like I like to learn right like I like to
absorb information that I love that part that everyone has about them yeah especially the old timers they they're
willing oh yeah to share a lot yep Beth what what do you uh so I was gonna say
there's two things that I think are kind of missing and I'm gonna rewind just a
little bit the manufacturer conversation um something that I stumbled across and
you know all my dealings with everyone and all these shows that I go to um we all know who the manufacturers are
who are involved in installation I mean it's pretty obvious but if you talk to any of the others who
aren't and you say you know so what do you think about this you know installer
shortage well it's not my problem and that's been the attitude of the ones
who aren't involved and and so just like you're talking about the installers trying to switch their attitude and
convince them that training is worthwhile it's going to make them better more efficient installers you
know how do you you have that same problem but with the manufacturer so how do you convert them also you know to see
the value in training and to see the value and and having an installer who can do an excellent job with their
product and make them look better yeah it seems like one one thing to
point out it seems to be you know the real Forefront companies do training you
know right and like you're you're I'll just say inventors of product you know
the the people who are on the your protectors that made product and it has a specific way of installation
specifically with rapid weld you know uh your Nora your Nora rubbers your your
four bows and then your larger companies and they just they
got away from training all together the manufacturers because of the liability am I right in that Sonny is that that's
exactly what it is they don't want to give a certification because of the liability yeah and then they even I
understood kind of pulled back on even like completion courses and it blows my mind
like yeah that you know like the certificate of completion side of things
so you don't get a uh certification but you get a certificate of completion but
what blows my mind is that the manufacturers gave up on that so easy I mean some of them are not
obviously but they gave up on that they just wanted to wash their hands of the
liability and it it's like well what about the three-point I think it was last year was 3.4 billion dollars
3.4 billion in flooring failures I believe it that that's ambulance
if we can't fix that that and that includes moisture and when you include
moisture it bumps it up there quite a bit and some of it you know you look at different uh studies or surveys but yeah
around 3.4 3.8 billion collectively well if we could lower that by half by
getting by manufacturers stepping in and educating again what what is your take Jerry just from the manufacturer's side
of things what what is the big liability no no manufacturers really been able to
answer that because um if they set up a separate entity to
train out of you know I just use one of the big names like Shaw and it was Shaw Training LLC a
completely separated entity they could do this just like a college and have no
liability when when a surgeon gets a malpractice suit they don't Sue Harvard
freaking metal medical right so what what is your um
from the manufacturer side there Jerry what's your take on that yeah it's to me it comes back to
resources uh you know luckily I have visibility to our parent company uh the
roofing manufacturer and and they you know they do they have that in in the
reason they they're able to is because they inspect every job that goes in um and that's how they they grade their
contractors you know for us we're just not big enough to be able to do that yet and uh we tried it years ago to be able
to put eyes on it and to be able to uh and it was just a major undertaking
um we just weren't ready to do that yet but it's it's in conversations uh that
we have quite often on how do we how do we bring back that grading system stay up on it just to make sure that you know
installers are meeting the you know the five-star level that we would want them to be but uh you know we haven't figured
it out yet and uh it is something that we would like to get to well I got a couple solutions for you we should talk
offline so having a network of trusted
installers across the country that can go inspect to well yeah and and the fact that uh you know if you're protect all
trained and you have that value on your Hammer rating uh the we could you can
tag the product and then you would know the level of execution for each
installer who's touched your product at least on our Network so anyway we can talk about that offline I try not to be
too salesy with go Carrera on this but a lot of the problems we uh you should be
you should be selling it every episode well we we inevitably fall in and start
talking about it but you know having a a full network of of graded installers so
to speak scored at the very least and your guys's training uh has an impact on
those people's scores you know we have your training on our platform and
um but yeah so back to the uniting of it that's what
from a training and then instead you know if you said utopian world it's like
you get out of college and there's or out of high school and there's some uh inkling for you to go into flooring in
there some in there's this welcome place we don't have that welcome place like
hey come into our you know I think fcf's trying to be that but
um here's where you need to go first and second and third you know to get plugged into the industry make sure that that
training's almost from the very beginning there's no formalized training it's word of mouth that's all we have my
uncle installs them we get this guy you know and get my nephew to work with me it needs to be you know and I always
here's the chicken which came first the chicken or the egg it's like well we don't have the training because nobody's asking for it well nobody's asking for
it because you don't have the training right so that that's that's one of the gaps that we need to to fill before we
can start really getting people right out of high school to come in the installation because if you think about
flooring I didn't mean to cut you off Paul but no you're good when you when you think about flooring especially when
you come in from the installation side of it there's no other industry out there
anywhere that opens more doors from than an installer and floor covering you can be an inspector you can work for a
manufacturer you can have your own store you can get in logistics because if you understand how these things fit it's
it's crazy what all you can get into whatever you want to do in the industry you can do it you just got to look for
it but that message is not getting to people coming out of high school coming out of college coming out of the Armed
Forces we're not getting that message to them and that's that's that's the bridge we need to gap for sure
yeah I think people in John steyer who are who are trying to change that as well I know that oh sure there's a lot
of groups that are trying yep yeah and that uh Crystal baby sisters uh
tried to Advocate at the local uh high school as well or or in the area and and
I do the same thing here it can try to get in there until we're blue in the face but everyone is always uh
we have a couple roadblocks is really all it is right yes you have to put ourselves in a position where we are also glorified as some of the other
trades so that way people are made aware of of us and and our
uh and what the flooring industry has to offer as a whole not just the installation side but you're right like everything else that comes along with
and that's where it comes as a package right where everyone has to come together because we talked about
manufacturers and how some of them don't care about training and then you go on some of these retail groups and a lot of
you know what's been on some of these retail groups lately is it's not our
deal to train the installers or to let them know that they're worth more if they don't know that they're worth more
I'm just going to keep on paying them but then you get these you know low paid installers that can't go to training
because they can't afford it and they can't pay guys what they're worth because they don't know how to charge
and it's it's just like a vicious circle and it just keeps on doing the same thing over and over again
um and then you know I got a comment from Facebook from Kendall and he he's just going back to manufacturers about
um blaming installers and stuff like that um his example was you know carpet
delamination they always want to blame the installers when it's not the installer's fault but that's where you
have to take into consideration if you take some of these classes you learn about what to look for and stuff like
that so that's the combination and this is document everything from all right
this is I think this is a manufacturer defect this is what I'm going to document this is who I have to talk to
this is who I'm going to send it to and then that way everything is a process
right and these are things no because you're not talking to the right people
it's it's we've been through it where we go on a job and it's like this is your
guys's fault and it's like 100 it's not I guarantee it send it and here's why
here's why yeah send an inspector out I got pictures from start to the Finish
uh what do you guys need to know well that's the that's that's the um you know
it's that's the combative nature a bit between manufacturer installation is it
is you can almost guarantee unless you have a slam dunk claim and I've been through a lot of claims over the years
uh 23 25 years of being in business
the the in the inspector Community
um you know should should not I don't like when the manufacturer uh
hires the inspector and they say they come to my job I've yet to have that turn out uh great not in your favor well
yeah we very very rarely lose these scenarios because we do document so well
but the uh point I wanted to bring up was your point Daniel that I think gets
missed in training is that you start to learn what is being looked for and you
can protect yourself uh the Nuggets that Sunny mentioned earlier that you pick up
on jobs I mean I've had that happen like in our company we had a a couple of
Subs that CFI I I talked them into going and getting CFI and they've been doing it
they learned from their Uncle who was actually a union trained uh installer
and resilient and carpet Iraq I guess uh they were very good installers so they
were very reluctant to go to the training they came back and they've since went to another one uh so they're
all the way through C2 because they were like I didn't even know like these all
these different little tricks that I was taught at this yeah you know you just don't like you said don't know what you don't know I
implore you guys to give the your yourself an advantage if nothing else
the confidence of knowing that you've been trained by industry standards yeah that's my rally cry to every installer
all the time well and if you don't get anything else the people listening don't get anything else from this podcast it's
what you just said documentation me as a manufacturer because I am a manufacturer
when I when I have a complaint and I approach the complaint and the contractor the installer has all the
information in front of them and they're open and they're talking this whole process goes a lot easier
it's when you're combative from day one because you don't know what you did right or did wrong you just oh I didn't
check it for moisture why should I check for moisture it's a 50 year old building right you know what you're supposed to do and
what you're not going to do you can actually work with a manufacturer and I'm telling you things are going to go better for you yeah
yeah Sonny I'll jump in on that too it uh it helps us because you know any if we ever get called to a situation we
want to figure it out you know we want to get everything resolved that helps us all come to what caused it uh not just
to say well I did that you don't bring it show it so we can validate it and absolutely uh you know we want to get to
the roots so we can correct it make sure uh you know there's no more issues moving forward has any of those
scenarios for you Jerry led to new training techniques within the class say get on a claim and you you see that oh
it's we probably should train on this more does that do those things come up I'm just curious absolutely
um you know one that that we saw uh we rolled out rapidwell it's uh concave seams so you know additional training on
that when I said earlier on that follow-up uh after somebody goes through the class going back because we know if
somebody lets the weld sit too long before they smooth it it drags it out the scene becomes concave so yeah we've
uh We've now what we call Refreshers is we go back and we touch on those topics where we see that we need to spend extra
time where maybe you know when the class is done everybody's ready to get back out to the field but uh yeah there's you
know there's certain items that we want to go back and just make sure they're comfortable and it goes back to what everybody was talking about today so the
installer is comfortable when they finish it's a good job everything is good it's solid
um yeah yep well I I think that in general I want to
screw this up today you know uh so mostly you'd be surprised to make a mistake or they may say they don't care
I think that happens a lot yeah they don't care yeah I don't get paid enough I mean look at floor price I don't care
I don't get paid enough although we say this like a joke the one thing that we do things that you can't
see it for my house yeah there you go I think I've heard that a couple times and we say that about a lot of things but
it's more and more or less a joke but yeah I think some guys are serious about that and then uh my my pet peeve is here
and installer say oh coat base will cover it you wouldn't have to worry if it was cut
in tight to the freaking wall base it'll be good yes I can't do this
and here's why ASTM 710 boom that solves about 50 of your problems right there
and I mentioned it you know General especially you're doing commercial work General Contractors want to minimize their liability as well if you tell them
this is why I can't do it it's going to fail I don't care if you find a guy who'll do it a buck a foot it'll still
fail they're gonna go with you if you can back it up I promise you yeah ASTM
standards are in every single contract that we've got that's right
that's our Firepower we use them opposite of what what has been used against us so no yeah it's not preferred
saying no it's ASTM saying no ASTM is pretty recognized they don't they don't like that nobody
like well you know according to the ASTM standards and right here on your guys's uh Master contract it says that I have
to abide by these but you guys are telling me not to right now so now we have a conflict of interest here all
right I'm going to be held to these standards if it fails it doesn't matter what I have and we've had the
conversation a few times but I think it's becoming a few fewer and further in between where those conversations are
actually coming up yeah Kendall came back with uh he said that he's documented stuff right out of the gate
taking pictures and the manufacturers still blame the installer
um so like whatever certification he has what
does it matter at that point because he needs the shop to have his back and he's just wondering what a good
response would be right so ask the certifying body who certified them give
the information to them I'd be happy to talk to anybody through Naf CT CFI would be happy to talk to anybody who said
look this is where I'm going that's what they're there for right you know they got these these numbers
for uh these associations and stuff like that you give them a call and it's like
hey I'm running into this who can I talk to and then they give you a list of people this is who you can talk to in
this field yeah there's all there's always going to be bad manufacturers there's nothing we can do about it but I
promise you the high majority of them want you to do a good job and want to help you do a good job and don't want
any problems right they're going to work with you not against you yeah so I mean when you get your first it's pretty
often when a when an inspector comes out uh that it's either going to be
maintenance or installation what you just got he needs to just push back like
don't take the first don't go down on the first punch that's the key and you can hire your own sector even then hire
your third-party inspector and have them go out and look at it and give give their opinion of it that's another big
piece they tried to fail a carpet job that we did and that's what the first thing we said they were like the inspector said it's your guys's fault we
said all right we're going to hire out our own inspector then and so to go take a look at it now is the end of that one
and then 100 the end of it there was another one where the manufacturer was like you guys did this this and this and
it's like no we we have that documentation you guys waited too long to to throw the VCT down well no we
didn't because you you say that we have you know 10 hours to throw it down we were in and
out in less than eight hours and it's all documented and then not only that at
some point it was but you guys know that we're certified right oh oh hold on yeah
let me let me get back to you yeah yeah I think those are a lot of the keys
where training come in and a you know what to ask for uh b i i you you know
where you can stand and fight like there's certain things not worth fighting for on inspection and there's
certain parts where you can dig your heels in if you know what you're doing and not to say that like
I think we can all agree most flooring failures are because of either
the environment or the installation I mean
manufacturers I'm they have culpability and have failures no doubt about it but
they are making their product in a controlled environment with all these state-of-the-art too I mean they have a
lot less areas where they're going to make a mistake than you are out in the field moving this damn thing around in a
in a you know at a school or something so uh that just goes back to more training
go to training learn where you can um well first off meet the people that
we've just been talking about this whole podcast the people you're going to meet there are going to can save your life I've called Jose and Daniel on stuff
they've called me on stuff we bounced things off of each other we have other people that we will call for advice and
things like just get to know the community first but secondly just knowing where you can really dig your
heels in and what what are those as team standards what are the installation instructions from the manufacturer so
you you can fight some of those deals but that all said uniting
um under you know what do we have to unite under and I think it's it's clear it's it's the installation Community the
training and then manufacturers have been making flooring forever
um we we can adapt to the new products and things as we are higher trained I
mean just put some guy that's never put a large format tile down and let him go try and it's like
you know if you've never been shown or properly trained on a particularly like
Gates porcelain panels I guarantee you are going to have yourself a nightmare so get trained get involved
um you know get your support group yeah reach out anybody on this podcast I know
um you know would be we we are I am more than willing I know
Daniel's more than willing I guarantee you Jerry being with protect all and sunny Beth is with the publication so
she might might uh tell you got the reasons
she knows everyone so you're you're safe you reach out but I mean we've made it known it's
um it's and it's one of the things like Dan or Jose said earlier that he's that he
loves is that we are willing in this industry to help each other out but you gotta know so the installers just got to
communicate a little bit more so yeah I was gonna make actually is the
communication side is something I've noticed I try to go I haven't been to any nafct training so anywhere have to
get together on that but um but something I've learned is there actually is all so much training going
on but so many people don't know about it uh there's organizations being developed
that people don't know about that's bringing training local to a specific area that I even know that fcef is
funding that they don't even promote and I know everyone's overwhelmed I know
they have a lot on their plate but until you tell everyone what you're doing and I know people don't always want to you
know be like hey look at me look at what I'm doing but you need to like where we're at right now like everyone these
young people coming up they need to see everyone who's involved they need to see the John Styers all of you they need to
know who they can reach out to in their area if they're interested I mean
because their parents are not telling them about it we're coming out of a generation of parents who don't
necessarily they didn't come up through the trades so so what you know so that's at least
where it needs to start is that awareness piece but then the other side is for those of us who are in the
industry is we've got to figure out how to communicate that to each other even
as a training aggregator which is one of the main things go career does like we got we put all the training together we
have a training page we try to aggregate it all there it's still it's like getting the
message out there and then anybody reacting I've I've I've posted a few
times with mixed reviews on social about a training in an area and it's not the
comments to come back or anything that that I've taken notice of it's the engagement of that it doesn't get
engaged with very well I don't know why I I don't know the answer to that piece but I think some people are just scared
man some people are scared to be told that that they're not doing a race and people are scared of failure right they
don't want to go to a training or a certification and walk away saying oh man I've been doing it wrong oh man that
was over my head or I didn't pass you know what it's it's not a failure if you're learning
something right if you're in the audience and that you drop the Eco and and like
that here's another component something to think about that I didn't it just didn't
dawn on me but actually a lot of people don't read well like a lot of people
who've been doing this for so so long don't read well they're not good test takers things like that so let me put
the word out I didn't think you were gonna call Daniel out like that
if that's the case then in that situation you just need to go to the people who are in charge and just
explain they will make accommodations for you so that you can get through it you know we do that with bilingual
classes we try to have an interpreter yeah like it's not only like everything that
we're talking about it's also we've been we've been to a class where someone
showed up and they're like they see us and they're intimidated they're like oh why am I here and it's like we're all
right here for the same thing man we're just trying to learn too and you know they they ended up leaving and it's like
don't be intimidated just because you think that we're better than you
right everyone has something and I can learn something from you as well as you can learn something from me that's right
that's right that's the same thing I I did I did uh what certification years ago uh the company I was working for
thought it was a resilience certification I went to a wood certification right I had zero knowledge
at that point about wood flooring but I went in there and there it was already paper and I said you know what it's okay
I'm in the wrong place I said but I'm I'm going to take I'm going to do all this and I'm going to pass right I
challenge myself um and and I did and I did and that's fine
do you know a little bit about some flooring that's going to go a long way no matter what what discipline you're
getting trained or certified in right and and for those people who like that's a people who can't read that well or or
or are afraid to public speak or can't really articulate their words properly
it's okay the flooring industry is blessed with a lot of Hands-On a lot of
a lot of the the classes is more they're the class there is an instructor and
maybe the ratio isn't what you want it to be or isn't what they wanted to be but I assure you that nobody is there to
put you in a bad spot to make you fail everyone wants to see you succeed and pass everyone wants to see you walk out
of there with more knowledge than you walked in with and if you have all the knowledge share and that's part of it
too right because even if you don't get certified you're still learning it's still a win yeah
well and that's I guess at at the core of it is is learn for your
you know go to the training to learn the stuff for yourself and you know
maybe leave the immediate gratification of making more money the next day you get certified or
um you know like like Daniel said if you're really good go help others I I
remember uh plenty there's every certification course I've been to every train I've been to there's somebody
who's really good in there that's walking around helping others as their as they finish their module before
anybody else uh you know it just tends to happen and nobody it's always been a
friendly uh enjoyable scenario so non-competitive yeah just get out there
uh expose yourself to it as as much as you can
um to build your own career like we if you're a flooring installer you are your
product your knowledge your hand skill in your head is your product and the
best way to turn that into a a whether you want to have just a good living or
you know turn it into a lot of money um is by doubling down on your knowledge
I mean even if you go and say um
you know I'm gonna let Jerry's gotta run it looks like Jerry you want to say a few last uh
parting words for us yeah guys um and I hate to cut this short because this is a great conversation but
um but you have to do it on a lake man I mean well I got to go pick up kids
um so it's priorities uh he says we got family again no but this is great and uh
for anybody listening uh you know man and I bet I think you said it but the
resources on on this webinar and and those out there you know we're all willing to help you know we want to
create trainings that work for everybody and we we want to put in topics that everybody wants to learn more about in
addition to because we know everybody knows how to put down she goods and cut and things like that but we want to get
into topics that people want to learn more about too so so just remember we want to hear that and we want to know how we can do it better uh so it's you
know it's it's accommodating to people coming in and really that's for me I think all of us coming together we've
started a little bit of it that I shared earlier bringing in other manufacturer to touch on topics when we do classes
but um you know we want to hear from people how we can do it better because that's that's very important to me always uh
how do people get the most out of a class that protect outputs together and I've heard other manufacturers that you
know intrigued to hear the same so keep sharing it with us and uh we'll definitely continue to do better on our
side and add more to bring value to people that come to those classes let them know how to get a hold of you too
I appreciate that no that's great well wrapping up here
thanks Jerry for joining us uh we have come upon our our one hour so we're gonna shut this thing down
um that we'll go around last closing statement mine is what I got out of this
whole thing is that the fact is is we as a con as a uh flooring Community overall
it's it's the smallest Big Industry I know of like the one you can sit across
the table from the CEO of Shaw or Mohawk at a luncheon at just a general flooring
convention um it's the smallest Big Industry I know and everybody you've heard it across the
the table here everybody's willing to help one another so get involved join and that is in its very nature Unity if
if you go to these things where everybody congregates and make these shows the installer has a bigger
presence you will be listening to more it's go careers rally cry to give the
installer a voice but you have to take your your steps and you got to take your part so that's my my two cents Sonny
I'll go right down the list what's your any closing thoughts there sir the biggest thing for me is going to be ASTM
I always talk about ASTM um if there's ever a complaint or a
problem on one of your job sites you will be judged by one or multiple ASTM standards and it drives me crazy when
people don't know what those standards are so join take is 75 to join as a
individual join and understand those documents and I promise you promise you
it will help you with headaches on a job site awesome well thanks for joining us today sunny
it was it was awesome good to see you again yes sir always good to see you appreciate you having me how about you
Beth I'll go back to the communication part uh make use of your trade Publications I
mean I want to plug FCI magazine but the truth is reach out to Jeff at Pro installer reach out to Floor Covering
news reach out to weekly let us know what you guys are doing I mean we we represent the voice of the industry but
we can only put out there what we get so if no one's talking to us then nothing's
going out so please just whoever you feel most comfortable with reach out to
that person that magazine yep awesome yeah if I can say one one more thing
her point was was spot on because she wasn't selfish she mentioned all the
other Publications that are out there and if you get in the minutia of all this training we all support each other
right there may be there may be some here or there I get it it's political it's gonna happen but if you get down to
it we all support each other because we all want to support the installer who's on the job site we're not selling
anything but education that's right trades Publications like honestly yes
we're all competing for the same news but at the end of the day you're going to see us all sitting together that's right somewhere so that's right
that's right Jose what's your uh closing thoughts all right closing thoughts uh you know if if
it really the the topic the conversation was how can we bring the industry together and unite it's
um existing installers out there who are aren't really strong for the
certification or don't really push for certification or training do your best to change your mindset right because the the amount of
information you're going to get and the the knowledge you're going to gain um is very very minimal to the
opportunities that you're going to have in front of you through the social capital that you're going to create the
social capital Alone um is worth its weight in gold and even if you go through trainings that don't
get certifications at least you're increasing that Capital to where you have someone you can call and if someone
calls you because you're you're climbing the ranks of someone who's knowledgeable then you're going to know someone that
you can refer them to if you don't have an answer and I think that that's really what is going to unite everyone under
the same blanket is is having that that Social Capital that the ability to lean on the industry for questions and
answers that that is that is really what is going to help each other out well said thanks sir awesome Daniel
we're talking about being united right let's we're all everyone manufacturers
retailers stores installers we're all here to put in a beautiful floor that's going to last the lifetime of that the
floor that's supposed to be down right so we need to get together and like you said especially as installers were kind
of that minority group at these shows and stuff so we need to group together even more so that way our presence is
known so if the more people we get out there they have to start paying attention to us
yeah we're not just that afterthought yeah so let's come together let's go to
these shows let's hang out man let's talk to each other that's uh
that's what it's all about that's right I know
you don't have a lot of time like I think I only seen Sunny for dinner one
time as service is but hey we still hung out daytime that's right
well if you're if you're uh in the audience you like any um of the topics that we've talked about
or that you know you're you um have found some things that struck you know struck a chord with you please
consider liking subscribing comment on the the the uh Facebook pages and and
YouTube help us out there but importantly we'd like to know what what
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professionals so consider a like And subscribe and with that I'm going to uh wrap this thing up everybody thank you
so much for coming it was a blast um as usual you know we we came right up
on the hour it went faster than I even expected so that's what happens when you're when you're out we started Paul
said I want to keep this at around a half hour 30 minutes and you see me laugh you seen me laugh right when he
said that too we did it twice twice as good
all right guys we'll have a great rest of your fourth of July thank you all right see you guys see you everybody
thank you guys