This week the guys had special guests Beth Miller, Sonny Callaham, and Jerry Lee to talk about training, trade shows, and uniting the industry.

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The HUDDLE is where the flooring industry can get together and talk about everything! Lead by Paul Stuart from Go Carerra who is joined by Daniel and Jose Gonzalez from Preferred Flooring.

https://www.preferredflooringmi.com

https://www.stuartandassociates.com

what's up floor and family welcome to

the huddle we come at you every Tuesday at 3 P.M Central to discuss maintaining

Ford progress in your flooring career with me today as always is Daniel and

Jose Gonzalez from preferred flooring up in Michigan we got some special guests today we got Jerry Lee Sonny Callahan

and Beth Miller I'll let you guys go through and do a brief introduction here you want to start us off there Jerry

yeah I appreciate you guys having me so my name is Jerry Lee I work with protect all commercial flooring been in the

industry for 22 years not only worked with vinyl flooring but also some resinous and Port floors also but uh

very good very glad to be a part of this today thanks for having me awesome thanks for being here Beth

hey everybody I'm Beth Miller with FCI magazine I'm the managing editor and I

get to spend every day talking to you lovely people so it's kind of nice to actually be on the other end of the game

well welcome aboard glad to have you nice Sunny yeah hey everybody appreciate you

having me on Paul Sonny Callahan um the founder of Divergent adhesives but also

more importantly the founder of nafct along with Paul pleshack and uh we're here to talk about how we can educate

everybody in the industry and pull us all together so I appreciate you having us awesome well welcome aboard

uh so today's uh topic is uniting the flooring industry and we were talking

offline here just a moment ago about how that that could probably be a be a

four-hour podcast because there's so many uh different uh Realms in the

flooring to unite but in general I the the topic is aimed at

for me I see the biggest divide being we go to say a show and you see all these

beautiful flooring products there and everybody's doing it on and I've taken a

few people to their first show at coverings or something like that they get pretty big-eyed didn't understand

the flooring industry was as big as it is uh and then I always point out like all

that pretty stuff doesn't matter if you don't have somebody who's going to put it in professionally like it just

doesn't matter it it you'll take this beautiful product and make it look like you know make it look like hell for lack

of a better word so you know the biggest divide I see is manufacturers make stuff

Distributors distribute stuff the flooring companies buy it and they

need labor but there's there's been over the last oh I I don't know I guess it

could be up for argument's sake at least a decade or two where uh the flooring installation Community

kind of falling from Grace from a qualities perspective uh I asked a

question many times and I could pose it to this panel but if you either know people that installed back in the 40s

and 50s or um did it yourself I often ask a

question was the installation quality the craftsmanship better than or now just as a whole and it was it's hands

down I mean we know the answer it's kind of rhetorical but they were so well trained and most were employee

installers at a flooring company of some sort and today those Dynamics have changed it's split the industry a bit

and uh so that's what we're here to talk about it has a long introduction Let's Get It On

no so what do you guys think of uh from a training aspect I mean we don't have a

flooring College uh we're just kind of now getting a very introductory level

course that's been kind of um inserted into different community colleges what do you guys think of these

approaches no I think it's great uh if you guys

don't mind me I'll go first I I think it's great uh you know I'm looking at this panel I'm thinking about all the

people who are listening chances are I've met you through an association right so get involved with the group

that's closest to your uh your goals and Ambitions in the industry right so you

know most of you guys are through fcica I've met you CFI and other groups like that but being able to take the time and

and it's not even the training for me it's the networking get to get to know the people that if you do have a problem

on a job site you know who to call right it's the you know it's if you don't know the answer you know the person to call

to get the answer and I think a lot of people misunderstand what training is at that point

um they think well okay I got this certification I should make twice as much as what I'm paying that doesn't

necessarily equate to the same thing right it's the ease of making your job better

yeah good points I think training is because of the

siled nature of it uh in our industry I think the advice you just gave of

finding the association the closest fits your I don't know your skill set whether

it's tile or carpet or whatever there's an organization for each one and then getting involved is the key as

installers if you're an independent installer you are your company you are a

company and you you getting involved is a big

piece of I think healing the industry in a lot of ways um but anyway yeah great points honey

how about you uh Jeff Jerry

well I'm thinking it was me because I didn't see a Jeff on the call but um you know that training's been a um a

difficult Dynamic for us uh one is you know there's a lot of times that we set up and host classes and you know we

arrive to do a two-day session and you know installers get called out to the job so then are we getting the right

people into those and you know I get it everybody's busy and you know due to labor shortages so we've done some

things to try to accommodate uh just to you know beyond deposits and things like that but really to to make it intriguing

and uh you know to get the right people in but you know for us it's a training isn't one session it's uh it's follow-up

six months later touching you know welding again and uh some of the the more detailed items just to make sure

that it's stuck after that two-day class so it's uh you know we've expanded our training force in the last year just

just so we can make those extra touches and keep expanding on it and you know we just did a contractor focus group and

when we do get those groups together to try to bring in other resources to talk about adhesive and prep and some of

those types of things so training is one of the most important things that we do and uh you know we're continuing to

think of creative ways especially after the pandemic when people didn't want us to you know we couldn't be face to face

so we started some virtual sessions but now getting back to that face to face but expanding on all those so we can

just continue to keep that knowledge going and uh we're still looking for good ways to make sure that you know the

classes are attended when we get there and uh we don't have the the best answer yet but

um continuing to kind of dive into those topics with my group and uh come up with better ways

when you do the your guys's training do you guys train on

um the floor prep side of things ahead of or is it pretty focused on it's it's pretty detailed on protect

all um we're starting to get into more of the floor prep but one of the the other

uh suggestions that we've had from some of the people on my team is when we do one of those we have somebody from a

tool manufacturer come in we have somebody from a crap manufacturer come in just to

to try to make the best of that and bring that extra knowledge to those groups and we've had some success with

it it's still not where we want it to be but we're making efforts around that so it's but then you're always up against

the the time Factor because now you're bringing in you know it's full two days could roll into three

but we're trying to do that in a condensed fashion just to to uh offer that extra bit of knowledge Beyond just

the protect all side yeah that's United that's that's a form of uniting is and I know Sonny you do

this a lot with the NFA NF uh CT is naft sorry uh Jeff's with us and he'll he'll

he'll back me up on that one the is uniting these different uh

manufacturers to because everybody's products got to play together right and

figure out how that works um and sometimes you just don't know so

it's it's great for those trainings to be um together but

absolutely outside of training how how you know I know it's the one time we can

all get together and that seems like uniting but how do we unite the industry overall to uh really back the training

entities um in a meaningful way I know there's some successes out there and some of you guys

can speak on this better than myself but I thought I'd pose the question you know how how is the manufacturing I

know they're you know um involved with the fcef and and

um a lot of the other associations but still seems to me like training is still like put on the back burner for stuff

and it just it blows my mind I'm an old installer so like I installed protect all I've been installed a lot of sheet

goods and resilient products where kind of I lived and it just still seems like

uh it's the for it still seems to be forgotten a bit I don't know yeah for me

I think it starts with the manufacturers right these manufacturers starting to bring just what well like what Jerry

said they're starting to bring more people in and start training again well if you have one person training this way

and another person training the other way you've got to make sure they're teaching the best practices right so what we've

done is we've created the curriculum so that the technical department can have the curriculum to standardize what

all these different companies are teaching but we also allow them to be product

specific so we've all been to Association presentations and we're talking about the self leveler the

patching compound the this where the manufacturers can teach the correct curriculum or at least a

standardized curriculum and then plug in their product you get sales and

marketing and you get technical well guess who gets the money sales and marketing gets the money right so if we

can combine the two together we've seen a lot of success with having people go through the class and and just

standardize it but again I think having a manufacturer involved is key to success

well Beth you talk to manufacturers a lot what's the does installation come up

uh all uh thumbs up if I ask I was gonna say I was

going to preface that with uh every or every magazine I read or article if it's

not pro installer there's like this or we're on this kick of the labor

shortage for a time you can see it in the Publications it's like all of a sudden labor shortage comes up again and it's in every one of them but for the

most part outside that like uh uniting together to have this standardized curriculum which I I've

always thought it was very clever way to bring in manufacturers and and get a

training that each one trains on their products a specific uh and standardized

way and that's that's a great way to use product demos which you know I know you

elongate those it's not just a product demo but still like the set and your sales reps and people

like that can get involved and it comes out of different pots at the manufacturing uh so we we've all heard

about solution based selling this is solution Based training that's all it is right we teach what can go wrong on the

job and in our manufacturer our educational Partners they teach how to use their products to fix that problem

because if I just if I teach you how to use my product what did I just do I just

sold you my product yeah you kind of touch them both in yeah that's one of the big complaints with installers we

did we've done multiple surveys uh the number one reason installers are not

certified that was the question we asked why are you uh are you certified if not why that's basic the survey number one

reason I don't know where to go number two reason it doesn't make me any

more money the number three reason they just do not think it makes them any better they

don't see any value in it whatsoever yeah so you know it kind of plays all to this you know in my opinion we need to

start um really having a higher expectation of

you know the manufacturer to continue to work with these things and the installer

to take advantage of the the train I mean Jerry can't train you can't train I mean Beth can't put out training

um topics and and locations without the training happening and installers participating so the installer

participation pieces is another one that just I don't know how to fix it perfectly other than what I'm doing at

go Carrera which is you know giving them lasting value but that third one that

third point was well yeah say forbo it's it's great if I'm installing four mode but outside

data doesn't give me any value well if you've installed before and ever messed

with four bow or been through one of their trainings you know that just going to even if you don't get the certificate

just going to the forebo train now I don't know where that's at this moment because I know they pulled back on that and yeah they have a great class

forward protect all's classes another good example we've sent three or four installers to to Michigan for that

um but the thought processes it's great when I'm installing that floor it doesn't make me

anything else unless I'm bidding on installation for that product what go career does just give them lasting value

so that's our attempt at like making these trainings mean something long term

um but you know I I do think that that's one of the you know the industry

told us the installer said well we don't see the value you know we don't know where to go so

they've told us what problems to fix we've got to unite together to try to fix those that's my two cents but I I

kind of want to interject on that I want to interject on that for a second real quick it's already rub guys but uh

uh the they don't see any value and it doesn't make them any more money right so you're probably right in the sense

but if that's the if that's where you're gonna stay mentally that you then you probably don't need to make more money you probably don't deserve to make more

money um and you um the training and the certifications

don't make you more money they make you more valuable to yourself and to the industry so in turn you can generate

additional Revenue right you might not make more money per square foot but your

failure rate is going to decrease and then the phone calls that you get because of your success rates and the

high-end work you kick out is going to increase which in turn could could dictate the your value a little bit more

now you're more valuable to the industry to your local people and you can bump your your rates up a little bit because

you are valuable so just put the skills to like you said put the skills to work that you that you

learned and you will make more money that's yeah maybe not the day you get back from

training you know but several you you show you prove what that what these the

trainings you've been through you prove what they've done for your um your approach and technique and and

yes um Quality and then you can demand more we have guys uh uh as uh Stewart

Associates and installation um companies that

do absolutely fantastic work and they do get paid more by us they're less

headache we know we're not going to have to go out to the job site as much I mean you will make more money I don't know

where that came from that is just what the survey said but the in the so it's obvious I know where it came from

standardized from people like me they came from people like me they're back in the day when when people said go get

your certifications like it ain't gonna do me any justice you know go learn something why I already know how to do it right I was stubborn I was big-headed

it came from people just like me I know exactly where it came from and that's that that's why it's easy for me to go

ahead and and push back on that now because this if you guys aren't willing to invest in yourself like I wasn't willing to invest

in myself a while ago I mean it wasn't until Daniel push pushed me through that door right like hey dude we got to start

doing this it's like dude you're right I don't have anything to show for 20 almost 20 years of of installation like

you're right and uh if you don't invest in yourself you

won't receive any additional funds you won't receive anything in addition to what you're already making

um and you know and granted some people are after the the large dollars some

people are after the long term the longevity of their career and there's there's no wrong way when you're going

and getting educated and training yourself if you want the large dollar you'll get educated train yourself be

have more knowledge right familiarize yourself with more than one product because the the whether you like

it or not those disciplines they overlapped they overlap the more you know about everything and collectively

the better off you are well the more the guy the guys that know that you can send to do a tile job and then turn around

and send them to do a flash coach sheet bottle project they're like worth their weight in gold

[Music] the way you were the way you did think

uh is is flawed right and you change that and look at the results I mean I

this podcast has been here to try to expose that if you will just take the

step and get yourself to these training courses go to go

careers training page go to the nasct's training page go to there there are a

lot of places to go now where you can find it you got to take the leap of faith I just I get what you're saying

but that's where it came from but how do we fix that you know how do you fix the people that believe that and it's only

education and then a podcast like this that bring out the truth I I made more

money after I started getting certified and this was after I started this company it was just a mindset shift well

I think a lot of it has to do with like he said you know your your mindset and then thinking that why do I need this I

already know how to do it and then what happens if you go to your first class and then you learn that you know one or

two nuggets and it's like I never thought of that before and I'm never gonna do it the old way again and then

it's like well what else have I been doing wrong and then further in your education from there because

man what else do you mean this has got to be humble enough to say all right I don't know everything

from someone that does we don't know what you don't know [Laughter]

I was just gonna say there's some really important points in here first one uh yeah forebo that was my first

installation class that I ever attended I learned so much from that and it opened my eyes to you know just the

quality of the class and um you know I did starting off an installation I heard a lot about it

signed myself up for the class got in and uh but after that we've expanded uh

because we've had to uh to to get people interested in training

we in and you don't want to Market you know failures and things like that but we do talk about what can happen by not

going through it and you know anybody who's put in protect all if if they don't pay attention to the welding

process and we had one of the biggest challenges years ago we rolled out rapid weld because everybody you know a 30

year old heat welder he knows how to weld he's not going to come to a class learn how to put on rapid Weld and we

fought that battle but when we started to show some of that you know not Market us negatively but a poor weld what can

happen to you but you know one that's that's helped us a little bit also get people interested

in coming to classes is talking about bidding correctly and Jose you were touching on it

um you know timing that it takes to weld or base and those types of things so we we've added in a portion that is more

than just installation but knowing how to bid properly and make sure that you're making money on it and things like that and that's also it's helped a

little bit I can't say it's it's completely you know it has people knocking down our doors for it but you know we get good participation and

people are interested in that so we've expanded on topics like that also which you know that does catch people's

attention and it's it's been beneficial awesome yeah and I think Jose and Daniel nailed it I mean

it's it's not for the instant gratification I mean just look at the two of them look how long they've been

doing training five six years I don't know how long ago Daniel did we meet at a heat weld class yeah like five years

ago yeah it's been a while and look at the success you guys have had

um but you know the biggest challenge that I see from installers when we say we want them to come to a certification

course the their first thought is oh you're going to try to teach me how to install floors that's not what I'm doing

you know how to teach you know how to install floors I'm teaching you better ways to do it and if you pick up two or

three or four different points at the class guess what that's two or three or four different callbacks you're not

gonna get right you know it takes two or three of those a year to where you're making more money

right you don't have to go fix a headache because oh I learned that at a class that's making you money so you've

got to understand the principle of you know it's not just hey I want more per per you know per per square foot or per

yard whatever it is you know I I always tell people it's like a professional athlete right you think a major league

baseball player doesn't know how to play baseball he knows how to play baseball really good but guess what he does in

between games he practices he trains it's the exact same thing you can't

assume you can't rest on your laurels you can't assume that what you're doing is the right way or the best way I gave

a I gave a presentation last week about ASTM and ASTM standards

it's shocking that people don't know about these standards yet when there's a complaint against your work guess what

you're going to be judged by ASTM standards right and these guys don't have it in

their pocket you should be in your toolbox right next to your Hammer your project managers need to have it again

what we just said a few minutes ago you don't know what you don't know and when you get involved with these groups

for me I sit down with some Chrysler every time I can I think I know a lot about the industry I sit down with Tim

christler I don't say a word for an hour and a half I listen I learn from them and there's people like that all through

the industry that you've got to be humble and understand there's things that you can learn I love that part I love that part of the

industry by the way you guys that's my favorite the what no the part where everyone's willing to

share information yeah that is that's my favorite part like I like to learn right like I like to

absorb information that I love that part that everyone has about them yeah especially the old timers they they're

willing oh yeah to share a lot yep Beth what what do you uh so I was gonna say

there's two things that I think are kind of missing and I'm gonna rewind just a

little bit the manufacturer conversation um something that I stumbled across and

you know all my dealings with everyone and all these shows that I go to um we all know who the manufacturers are

who are involved in installation I mean it's pretty obvious but if you talk to any of the others who

aren't and you say you know so what do you think about this you know installer

shortage well it's not my problem and that's been the attitude of the ones

who aren't involved and and so just like you're talking about the installers trying to switch their attitude and

convince them that training is worthwhile it's going to make them better more efficient installers you

know how do you you have that same problem but with the manufacturer so how do you convert them also you know to see

the value in training and to see the value and and having an installer who can do an excellent job with their

product and make them look better yeah it seems like one one thing to

point out it seems to be you know the real Forefront companies do training you

know right and like you're you're I'll just say inventors of product you know

the the people who are on the your protectors that made product and it has a specific way of installation

specifically with rapid weld you know uh your Nora your Nora rubbers your your

four bows and then your larger companies and they just they

got away from training all together the manufacturers because of the liability am I right in that Sonny is that that's

exactly what it is they don't want to give a certification because of the liability yeah and then they even I

understood kind of pulled back on even like completion courses and it blows my mind

like yeah that you know like the certificate of completion side of things

so you don't get a uh certification but you get a certificate of completion but

what blows my mind is that the manufacturers gave up on that so easy I mean some of them are not

obviously but they gave up on that they just wanted to wash their hands of the

liability and it it's like well what about the three-point I think it was last year was 3.4 billion dollars

3.4 billion in flooring failures I believe it that that's ambulance

if we can't fix that that and that includes moisture and when you include

moisture it bumps it up there quite a bit and some of it you know you look at different uh studies or surveys but yeah

around 3.4 3.8 billion collectively well if we could lower that by half by

getting by manufacturers stepping in and educating again what what is your take Jerry just from the manufacturer's side

of things what what is the big liability no no manufacturers really been able to

answer that because um if they set up a separate entity to

train out of you know I just use one of the big names like Shaw and it was Shaw Training LLC a

completely separated entity they could do this just like a college and have no

liability when when a surgeon gets a malpractice suit they don't Sue Harvard

freaking metal medical right so what what is your um

from the manufacturer side there Jerry what's your take on that yeah it's to me it comes back to

resources uh you know luckily I have visibility to our parent company uh the

roofing manufacturer and and they you know they do they have that in in the

reason they they're able to is because they inspect every job that goes in um and that's how they they grade their

contractors you know for us we're just not big enough to be able to do that yet and uh we tried it years ago to be able

to put eyes on it and to be able to uh and it was just a major undertaking

um we just weren't ready to do that yet but it's it's in conversations uh that

we have quite often on how do we how do we bring back that grading system stay up on it just to make sure that you know

installers are meeting the you know the five-star level that we would want them to be but uh you know we haven't figured

it out yet and uh it is something that we would like to get to well I got a couple solutions for you we should talk

offline so having a network of trusted

installers across the country that can go inspect to well yeah and and the fact that uh you know if you're protect all

trained and you have that value on your Hammer rating uh the we could you can

tag the product and then you would know the level of execution for each

installer who's touched your product at least on our Network so anyway we can talk about that offline I try not to be

too salesy with go Carrera on this but a lot of the problems we uh you should be

you should be selling it every episode well we we inevitably fall in and start

talking about it but you know having a a full network of of graded installers so

to speak scored at the very least and your guys's training uh has an impact on

those people's scores you know we have your training on our platform and

um but yeah so back to the uniting of it that's what

from a training and then instead you know if you said utopian world it's like

you get out of college and there's or out of high school and there's some uh inkling for you to go into flooring in

there some in there's this welcome place we don't have that welcome place like

hey come into our you know I think fcf's trying to be that but

um here's where you need to go first and second and third you know to get plugged into the industry make sure that that

training's almost from the very beginning there's no formalized training it's word of mouth that's all we have my

uncle installs them we get this guy you know and get my nephew to work with me it needs to be you know and I always

here's the chicken which came first the chicken or the egg it's like well we don't have the training because nobody's asking for it well nobody's asking for

it because you don't have the training right so that that's that's one of the gaps that we need to to fill before we

can start really getting people right out of high school to come in the installation because if you think about

flooring I didn't mean to cut you off Paul but no you're good when you when you think about flooring especially when

you come in from the installation side of it there's no other industry out there

anywhere that opens more doors from than an installer and floor covering you can be an inspector you can work for a

manufacturer you can have your own store you can get in logistics because if you understand how these things fit it's

it's crazy what all you can get into whatever you want to do in the industry you can do it you just got to look for

it but that message is not getting to people coming out of high school coming out of college coming out of the Armed

Forces we're not getting that message to them and that's that's that's the bridge we need to gap for sure

yeah I think people in John steyer who are who are trying to change that as well I know that oh sure there's a lot

of groups that are trying yep yeah and that uh Crystal baby sisters uh

tried to Advocate at the local uh high school as well or or in the area and and

I do the same thing here it can try to get in there until we're blue in the face but everyone is always uh

we have a couple roadblocks is really all it is right yes you have to put ourselves in a position where we are also glorified as some of the other

trades so that way people are made aware of of us and and our

uh and what the flooring industry has to offer as a whole not just the installation side but you're right like everything else that comes along with

and that's where it comes as a package right where everyone has to come together because we talked about

manufacturers and how some of them don't care about training and then you go on some of these retail groups and a lot of

you know what's been on some of these retail groups lately is it's not our

deal to train the installers or to let them know that they're worth more if they don't know that they're worth more

I'm just going to keep on paying them but then you get these you know low paid installers that can't go to training

because they can't afford it and they can't pay guys what they're worth because they don't know how to charge

and it's it's just like a vicious circle and it just keeps on doing the same thing over and over again

um and then you know I got a comment from Facebook from Kendall and he he's just going back to manufacturers about

um blaming installers and stuff like that um his example was you know carpet

delamination they always want to blame the installers when it's not the installer's fault but that's where you

have to take into consideration if you take some of these classes you learn about what to look for and stuff like

that so that's the combination and this is document everything from all right

this is I think this is a manufacturer defect this is what I'm going to document this is who I have to talk to

this is who I'm going to send it to and then that way everything is a process

right and these are things no because you're not talking to the right people

it's it's we've been through it where we go on a job and it's like this is your

guys's fault and it's like 100 it's not I guarantee it send it and here's why

here's why yeah send an inspector out I got pictures from start to the Finish

uh what do you guys need to know well that's the that's that's the um you know

it's that's the combative nature a bit between manufacturer installation is it

is you can almost guarantee unless you have a slam dunk claim and I've been through a lot of claims over the years

uh 23 25 years of being in business

the the in the inspector Community

um you know should should not I don't like when the manufacturer uh

hires the inspector and they say they come to my job I've yet to have that turn out uh great not in your favor well

yeah we very very rarely lose these scenarios because we do document so well

but the uh point I wanted to bring up was your point Daniel that I think gets

missed in training is that you start to learn what is being looked for and you

can protect yourself uh the Nuggets that Sunny mentioned earlier that you pick up

on jobs I mean I've had that happen like in our company we had a a couple of

Subs that CFI I I talked them into going and getting CFI and they've been doing it

they learned from their Uncle who was actually a union trained uh installer

and resilient and carpet Iraq I guess uh they were very good installers so they

were very reluctant to go to the training they came back and they've since went to another one uh so they're

all the way through C2 because they were like I didn't even know like these all

these different little tricks that I was taught at this yeah you know you just don't like you said don't know what you don't know I

implore you guys to give the your yourself an advantage if nothing else

the confidence of knowing that you've been trained by industry standards yeah that's my rally cry to every installer

all the time well and if you don't get anything else the people listening don't get anything else from this podcast it's

what you just said documentation me as a manufacturer because I am a manufacturer

when I when I have a complaint and I approach the complaint and the contractor the installer has all the

information in front of them and they're open and they're talking this whole process goes a lot easier

it's when you're combative from day one because you don't know what you did right or did wrong you just oh I didn't

check it for moisture why should I check for moisture it's a 50 year old building right you know what you're supposed to do and

what you're not going to do you can actually work with a manufacturer and I'm telling you things are going to go better for you yeah

yeah Sonny I'll jump in on that too it uh it helps us because you know any if we ever get called to a situation we

want to figure it out you know we want to get everything resolved that helps us all come to what caused it uh not just

to say well I did that you don't bring it show it so we can validate it and absolutely uh you know we want to get to

the roots so we can correct it make sure uh you know there's no more issues moving forward has any of those

scenarios for you Jerry led to new training techniques within the class say get on a claim and you you see that oh

it's we probably should train on this more does that do those things come up I'm just curious absolutely

um you know one that that we saw uh we rolled out rapidwell it's uh concave seams so you know additional training on

that when I said earlier on that follow-up uh after somebody goes through the class going back because we know if

somebody lets the weld sit too long before they smooth it it drags it out the scene becomes concave so yeah we've

uh We've now what we call Refreshers is we go back and we touch on those topics where we see that we need to spend extra

time where maybe you know when the class is done everybody's ready to get back out to the field but uh yeah there's you

know there's certain items that we want to go back and just make sure they're comfortable and it goes back to what everybody was talking about today so the

installer is comfortable when they finish it's a good job everything is good it's solid

um yeah yep well I I think that in general I want to

screw this up today you know uh so mostly you'd be surprised to make a mistake or they may say they don't care

I think that happens a lot yeah they don't care yeah I don't get paid enough I mean look at floor price I don't care

I don't get paid enough although we say this like a joke the one thing that we do things that you can't

see it for my house yeah there you go I think I've heard that a couple times and we say that about a lot of things but

it's more and more or less a joke but yeah I think some guys are serious about that and then uh my my pet peeve is here

and installer say oh coat base will cover it you wouldn't have to worry if it was cut

in tight to the freaking wall base it'll be good yes I can't do this

and here's why ASTM 710 boom that solves about 50 of your problems right there

and I mentioned it you know General especially you're doing commercial work General Contractors want to minimize their liability as well if you tell them

this is why I can't do it it's going to fail I don't care if you find a guy who'll do it a buck a foot it'll still

fail they're gonna go with you if you can back it up I promise you yeah ASTM

standards are in every single contract that we've got that's right

that's our Firepower we use them opposite of what what has been used against us so no yeah it's not preferred

saying no it's ASTM saying no ASTM is pretty recognized they don't they don't like that nobody

like well you know according to the ASTM standards and right here on your guys's uh Master contract it says that I have

to abide by these but you guys are telling me not to right now so now we have a conflict of interest here all

right I'm going to be held to these standards if it fails it doesn't matter what I have and we've had the

conversation a few times but I think it's becoming a few fewer and further in between where those conversations are

actually coming up yeah Kendall came back with uh he said that he's documented stuff right out of the gate

taking pictures and the manufacturers still blame the installer

um so like whatever certification he has what

does it matter at that point because he needs the shop to have his back and he's just wondering what a good

response would be right so ask the certifying body who certified them give

the information to them I'd be happy to talk to anybody through Naf CT CFI would be happy to talk to anybody who said

look this is where I'm going that's what they're there for right you know they got these these numbers

for uh these associations and stuff like that you give them a call and it's like

hey I'm running into this who can I talk to and then they give you a list of people this is who you can talk to in

this field yeah there's all there's always going to be bad manufacturers there's nothing we can do about it but I

promise you the high majority of them want you to do a good job and want to help you do a good job and don't want

any problems right they're going to work with you not against you yeah so I mean when you get your first it's pretty

often when a when an inspector comes out uh that it's either going to be

maintenance or installation what you just got he needs to just push back like

don't take the first don't go down on the first punch that's the key and you can hire your own sector even then hire

your third-party inspector and have them go out and look at it and give give their opinion of it that's another big

piece they tried to fail a carpet job that we did and that's what the first thing we said they were like the inspector said it's your guys's fault we

said all right we're going to hire out our own inspector then and so to go take a look at it now is the end of that one

and then 100 the end of it there was another one where the manufacturer was like you guys did this this and this and

it's like no we we have that documentation you guys waited too long to to throw the VCT down well no we

didn't because you you say that we have you know 10 hours to throw it down we were in and

out in less than eight hours and it's all documented and then not only that at

some point it was but you guys know that we're certified right oh oh hold on yeah

let me let me get back to you yeah yeah I think those are a lot of the keys

where training come in and a you know what to ask for uh b i i you you know

where you can stand and fight like there's certain things not worth fighting for on inspection and there's

certain parts where you can dig your heels in if you know what you're doing and not to say that like

I think we can all agree most flooring failures are because of either

the environment or the installation I mean

manufacturers I'm they have culpability and have failures no doubt about it but

they are making their product in a controlled environment with all these state-of-the-art too I mean they have a

lot less areas where they're going to make a mistake than you are out in the field moving this damn thing around in a

in a you know at a school or something so uh that just goes back to more training

go to training learn where you can um well first off meet the people that

we've just been talking about this whole podcast the people you're going to meet there are going to can save your life I've called Jose and Daniel on stuff

they've called me on stuff we bounced things off of each other we have other people that we will call for advice and

things like just get to know the community first but secondly just knowing where you can really dig your

heels in and what what are those as team standards what are the installation instructions from the manufacturer so

you you can fight some of those deals but that all said uniting

um under you know what do we have to unite under and I think it's it's clear it's it's the installation Community the

training and then manufacturers have been making flooring forever

um we we can adapt to the new products and things as we are higher trained I

mean just put some guy that's never put a large format tile down and let him go try and it's like

you know if you've never been shown or properly trained on a particularly like

Gates porcelain panels I guarantee you are going to have yourself a nightmare so get trained get involved

um you know get your support group yeah reach out anybody on this podcast I know

um you know would be we we are I am more than willing I know

Daniel's more than willing I guarantee you Jerry being with protect all and sunny Beth is with the publication so

she might might uh tell you got the reasons

she knows everyone so you're you're safe you reach out but I mean we've made it known it's

um it's and it's one of the things like Dan or Jose said earlier that he's that he

loves is that we are willing in this industry to help each other out but you gotta know so the installers just got to

communicate a little bit more so yeah I was gonna make actually is the

communication side is something I've noticed I try to go I haven't been to any nafct training so anywhere have to

get together on that but um but something I've learned is there actually is all so much training going

on but so many people don't know about it uh there's organizations being developed

that people don't know about that's bringing training local to a specific area that I even know that fcef is

funding that they don't even promote and I know everyone's overwhelmed I know

they have a lot on their plate but until you tell everyone what you're doing and I know people don't always want to you

know be like hey look at me look at what I'm doing but you need to like where we're at right now like everyone these

young people coming up they need to see everyone who's involved they need to see the John Styers all of you they need to

know who they can reach out to in their area if they're interested I mean

because their parents are not telling them about it we're coming out of a generation of parents who don't

necessarily they didn't come up through the trades so so what you know so that's at least

where it needs to start is that awareness piece but then the other side is for those of us who are in the

industry is we've got to figure out how to communicate that to each other even

as a training aggregator which is one of the main things go career does like we got we put all the training together we

have a training page we try to aggregate it all there it's still it's like getting the

message out there and then anybody reacting I've I've I've posted a few

times with mixed reviews on social about a training in an area and it's not the

comments to come back or anything that that I've taken notice of it's the engagement of that it doesn't get

engaged with very well I don't know why I I don't know the answer to that piece but I think some people are just scared

man some people are scared to be told that that they're not doing a race and people are scared of failure right they

don't want to go to a training or a certification and walk away saying oh man I've been doing it wrong oh man that

was over my head or I didn't pass you know what it's it's not a failure if you're learning

something right if you're in the audience and that you drop the Eco and and like

that here's another component something to think about that I didn't it just didn't

dawn on me but actually a lot of people don't read well like a lot of people

who've been doing this for so so long don't read well they're not good test takers things like that so let me put

the word out I didn't think you were gonna call Daniel out like that

if that's the case then in that situation you just need to go to the people who are in charge and just

explain they will make accommodations for you so that you can get through it you know we do that with bilingual

classes we try to have an interpreter yeah like it's not only like everything that

we're talking about it's also we've been we've been to a class where someone

showed up and they're like they see us and they're intimidated they're like oh why am I here and it's like we're all

right here for the same thing man we're just trying to learn too and you know they they ended up leaving and it's like

don't be intimidated just because you think that we're better than you

right everyone has something and I can learn something from you as well as you can learn something from me that's right

that's right that's the same thing I I did I did uh what certification years ago uh the company I was working for

thought it was a resilience certification I went to a wood certification right I had zero knowledge

at that point about wood flooring but I went in there and there it was already paper and I said you know what it's okay

I'm in the wrong place I said but I'm I'm going to take I'm going to do all this and I'm going to pass right I

challenge myself um and and I did and I did and that's fine

do you know a little bit about some flooring that's going to go a long way no matter what what discipline you're

getting trained or certified in right and and for those people who like that's a people who can't read that well or or

or are afraid to public speak or can't really articulate their words properly

it's okay the flooring industry is blessed with a lot of Hands-On a lot of

a lot of the the classes is more they're the class there is an instructor and

maybe the ratio isn't what you want it to be or isn't what they wanted to be but I assure you that nobody is there to

put you in a bad spot to make you fail everyone wants to see you succeed and pass everyone wants to see you walk out

of there with more knowledge than you walked in with and if you have all the knowledge share and that's part of it

too right because even if you don't get certified you're still learning it's still a win yeah

well and that's I guess at at the core of it is is learn for your

you know go to the training to learn the stuff for yourself and you know

maybe leave the immediate gratification of making more money the next day you get certified or

um you know like like Daniel said if you're really good go help others I I

remember uh plenty there's every certification course I've been to every train I've been to there's somebody

who's really good in there that's walking around helping others as their as they finish their module before

anybody else uh you know it just tends to happen and nobody it's always been a

friendly uh enjoyable scenario so non-competitive yeah just get out there

uh expose yourself to it as as much as you can

um to build your own career like we if you're a flooring installer you are your

product your knowledge your hand skill in your head is your product and the

best way to turn that into a a whether you want to have just a good living or

you know turn it into a lot of money um is by doubling down on your knowledge

I mean even if you go and say um

you know I'm gonna let Jerry's gotta run it looks like Jerry you want to say a few last uh

parting words for us yeah guys um and I hate to cut this short because this is a great conversation but

um but you have to do it on a lake man I mean well I got to go pick up kids

um so it's priorities uh he says we got family again no but this is great and uh

for anybody listening uh you know man and I bet I think you said it but the

resources on on this webinar and and those out there you know we're all willing to help you know we want to

create trainings that work for everybody and we we want to put in topics that everybody wants to learn more about in

addition to because we know everybody knows how to put down she goods and cut and things like that but we want to get

into topics that people want to learn more about too so so just remember we want to hear that and we want to know how we can do it better uh so it's you

know it's it's accommodating to people coming in and really that's for me I think all of us coming together we've

started a little bit of it that I shared earlier bringing in other manufacturer to touch on topics when we do classes

but um you know we want to hear from people how we can do it better because that's that's very important to me always uh

how do people get the most out of a class that protect outputs together and I've heard other manufacturers that you

know intrigued to hear the same so keep sharing it with us and uh we'll definitely continue to do better on our

side and add more to bring value to people that come to those classes let them know how to get a hold of you too

I appreciate that no that's great well wrapping up here

thanks Jerry for joining us uh we have come upon our our one hour so we're gonna shut this thing down

um that we'll go around last closing statement mine is what I got out of this

whole thing is that the fact is is we as a con as a uh flooring Community overall

it's it's the smallest Big Industry I know of like the one you can sit across

the table from the CEO of Shaw or Mohawk at a luncheon at just a general flooring

convention um it's the smallest Big Industry I know and everybody you've heard it across the

the table here everybody's willing to help one another so get involved join and that is in its very nature Unity if

if you go to these things where everybody congregates and make these shows the installer has a bigger

presence you will be listening to more it's go careers rally cry to give the

installer a voice but you have to take your your steps and you got to take your part so that's my my two cents Sonny

I'll go right down the list what's your any closing thoughts there sir the biggest thing for me is going to be ASTM

I always talk about ASTM um if there's ever a complaint or a

problem on one of your job sites you will be judged by one or multiple ASTM standards and it drives me crazy when

people don't know what those standards are so join take is 75 to join as a

individual join and understand those documents and I promise you promise you

it will help you with headaches on a job site awesome well thanks for joining us today sunny

it was it was awesome good to see you again yes sir always good to see you appreciate you having me how about you

Beth I'll go back to the communication part uh make use of your trade Publications I

mean I want to plug FCI magazine but the truth is reach out to Jeff at Pro installer reach out to Floor Covering

news reach out to weekly let us know what you guys are doing I mean we we represent the voice of the industry but

we can only put out there what we get so if no one's talking to us then nothing's

going out so please just whoever you feel most comfortable with reach out to

that person that magazine yep awesome yeah if I can say one one more thing

her point was was spot on because she wasn't selfish she mentioned all the

other Publications that are out there and if you get in the minutia of all this training we all support each other

right there may be there may be some here or there I get it it's political it's gonna happen but if you get down to

it we all support each other because we all want to support the installer who's on the job site we're not selling

anything but education that's right trades Publications like honestly yes

we're all competing for the same news but at the end of the day you're going to see us all sitting together that's right somewhere so that's right

that's right Jose what's your uh closing thoughts all right closing thoughts uh you know if if

it really the the topic the conversation was how can we bring the industry together and unite it's

um existing installers out there who are aren't really strong for the

certification or don't really push for certification or training do your best to change your mindset right because the the amount of

information you're going to get and the the knowledge you're going to gain um is very very minimal to the

opportunities that you're going to have in front of you through the social capital that you're going to create the

social capital Alone um is worth its weight in gold and even if you go through trainings that don't

get certifications at least you're increasing that Capital to where you have someone you can call and if someone

calls you because you're you're climbing the ranks of someone who's knowledgeable then you're going to know someone that

you can refer them to if you don't have an answer and I think that that's really what is going to unite everyone under

the same blanket is is having that that Social Capital that the ability to lean on the industry for questions and

answers that that is that is really what is going to help each other out well said thanks sir awesome Daniel

we're talking about being united right let's we're all everyone manufacturers

retailers stores installers we're all here to put in a beautiful floor that's going to last the lifetime of that the

floor that's supposed to be down right so we need to get together and like you said especially as installers were kind

of that minority group at these shows and stuff so we need to group together even more so that way our presence is

known so if the more people we get out there they have to start paying attention to us

yeah we're not just that afterthought yeah so let's come together let's go to

these shows let's hang out man let's talk to each other that's uh

that's what it's all about that's right I know

you don't have a lot of time like I think I only seen Sunny for dinner one

time as service is but hey we still hung out daytime that's right

well if you're if you're uh in the audience you like any um of the topics that we've talked about

or that you know you're you um have found some things that struck you know struck a chord with you please

consider liking subscribing comment on the the the uh Facebook pages and and

YouTube help us out there but importantly we'd like to know what what

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professionals so consider a like And subscribe and with that I'm going to uh wrap this thing up everybody thank you

so much for coming it was a blast um as usual you know we we came right up

on the hour it went faster than I even expected so that's what happens when you're when you're out we started Paul

said I want to keep this at around a half hour 30 minutes and you see me laugh you seen me laugh right when he

said that too we did it twice twice as good

all right guys we'll have a great rest of your fourth of July thank you all right see you guys see you everybody

thank you guys